Mold/fungus question

Originally Posted By: wpedley
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James,


I hope you turned the shower on to test it.

![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
BPedley
Inspecting for the unexpected

Originally Posted By: whandley
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Bleach icon_idea.gif


Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
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Hello Mr. Goryl:


As an expert witness in mould (mold) issues, I agree with the poster Rob Z. In fact, I will go further and say that any additional testing would be irresponsible. For a start, before ANYONE does ANY kind of sampling of ANY kind, one should have established what are known as ?data quality objectives.? If you have not established DQOs, and you cannot articulate those DQOs to the client, you simply should not perform ANY sampling of ANY kind. If you do, and you get sued, then you will have to face an expert witness on the stand who will argue that your DQOs were invalid, and therefore, you sample was invalid, and therefore any decisions you made based on those results of the sample were invalid.

Ta-Da! $$$ for the plaintiff (and their experts) and tears for the defense.

Just my thought. But then, I think rain is wet ? so what do I know.

BTW, I would avoid the bleach idea, since it will achieve nothing. If you want to know what to do about this mould problem, call you Mother, she really DOES know best, in this case.

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

http://members.aol.com/fiosrach/main.html

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG


Originally Posted By: dplummer
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Caoimhin, please explain how one determines DQOs? I find this very interesting. I notice you spell mould (mold) the way we do here in Canada. Are you from the Great White North eh? Doug


Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hello Mr. Plummer:


Actually, the correct spelling "mould" is becoming preferred even south of the border. For me, it is easy, as I spent time as a youth growing up in Ireland where we learned the King's English.

On to DQOs...

In 17 years as a forensic industrial hygienist, and having performed hundreds of mould assessments, and collected thousands of samples, I would say that none (without exception) of the mould sampling and analysis I have encountered by Home Inspectors were collected, analyzed and/or interpreted correctly. In the overwhelming vast majority of cases, the information the HI provided to the client was simply flat-wrong, and not even supported by the sampling and analysis results. Very frequently, the data presented by the HI actually contradicted the conclusions and recommendations of the HI.

In my experience, in the realm of microbial issues, poor/inappropriate sampling and/or analysis is the primary root of the client?s bad information, and the poor choices as a result of that bad information, and the root of the law suit that follows.

Remembering that Home Inspectors and Industrial Hygienists are different breeds. And that industrial hygienists don?t perform home inspections (even if we are performing inspections in a home). We specialize in understanding sampling theory and the statistical validity and limitations of sampling and analysis. When I purchased my last homes, I relied heavily on the competence of the professional Home Inspector to do what I am not competent to do. However, he knew me and stuck to HIS profession and didn?t get into mine ? as a result, he didn?t even attempt to perform environmental sampling (radon, moulds, asbestos, pesticides, etc).

Now having said that - The establishment of data quality objectives is a QA/QC part of a larger decision making process; the result of analysis will be the pivotal point upon which those decisions are going to be made. The DQOs ensure, through their prescription, that a sufficient number of samples are collected from statistically representative locations in an acceptable manner by a recognized method. The DQOs will further specify that the samples are submitted to a laboratory that is capable of proficiently analyzing the samples to within a definable uncertainty, using valid methods (not all mould labs can do this). Lastly, the sample results are interpreted according to by ?PARCC? parameters (defined below) to find out if the DQOs were ultimately met. The parameters of the DQOs themselves can be very simple or very complex. DQOs are what make your data meaningful (and tenable in the event you get sued). Without DQOs, you don?t have data, you have numbers or names on a lab report that possibly CANNOT be interpreted by anyone, since ?data? has no intrinsic meaning outside of a priori decision criteria.

The DQO process is so entrenched in environmental sampling that it is discussed in great detail in many broad-spectrum governmental sampling protocol. For example, one of the ?bibles? of general environmental sampling is the US EPA SW846. The QA/QC chapters should be ESSENTIAL reading to any Home Inspector who wants to begin collecting samples for mould or other environmental contaminants.

The SW 846 describes DQOs thusly:

?2.1 DATA QUALITY OBJECTIVES
Data quality objectives (DQOs) for the data collection activity describe the overall level of uncertainty that a decision-maker is willing to accept in results derived from environmental data. This uncertainty is used to specify the quality of the measurement data required, usually in terms of objectives for precision, bias, representativeness, comparability and completeness. The DQOs should be defined prior to the initiation of the field and laboratory work. The field and laboratory organizations performing the work should be aware of the DQOs so that their personnel may make informed decisions during the course of the project to attain those DQOs. More detailed information on DQOs is available from the U.S. EPA Quality Assurance Management Staff (QAMS) (see references 2 and 4).?


Now we are getting to the nub of the issue ? ??usually in terms of objectives for precision, bias, representativeness, comparability and completeness.? These are the ?PARCC? parameters I mentioned above:

Precision:
How reproducible are measurements?
Accuracy:
How close is the value to the true value?
Relevancy:
Do the data speak to the a priori question being asked?
Comparability (Points of reference):
Can decisions be based by comparing the results against regulatory or nationally accepted guidelines or at least arbitrary guidelines that we established before we sampled?
Completeness:
Have the DQOs been met?

Without picking on Mr. Goryl, let?s look at the example which started this discussion. A black smudge in the shower. ?Should I sample?? becomes, ?Why would I sample?? Is it to find out if the house has mould? No. We already know that ALL houses have mould, so that question has already been answered. Is it to find out if the house has Bacteria? No. We already know that ALL houses have Bacteria, so that question also has already been answered. Is it to find out if the mould is Stachybotrys (the notorious, but largely harmless ?toxic black mould? of science fiction)? No. We already know that ALL houses in the U.S. contain Stachybotrys and that there has not ever been even one confirmed case of Stachybotrys induced mycotoxicosis from residential indoor air; so THAT question has already been answered. Should we sample to find out which species or genus it is? Well, unless we first answer the question ?Is it a mould or Bacteria? we don?t know if it HAS a genus or species. In the event that it does belong to a particular genus or species, which decisions will we make differently depending on the identification of genus or the species? For example, if it is Alternaria, will I recommend anything different than if it belongs to the Cladosporia or Memnoniella? Am I a competent microbiologist or industrial hygienist whose background permits me to make that differentiation? OK, then let?s sample to see if it?s a mould or Bacteria. OK ? which and why? Well to see if the house has a mould problem. Answer: Since when does a 3 square inch patch of mould in a shower constitute a mould problem in a house? If I want to find out if the house has a mould problem, shouldn?t I design a sampling scheme that will reliably answer that question?

In short, collecting a sample of the smudge in the shower, in the absence of any DQOs, leaves you with a lab result that it ENTIRELY meaningless. Let?s say for example, Mr. Gorly did collect a swab of the smudge, and the lab report came back and stated ?2.6E3 CFUs Cladosporium.? Jolly good. Now, what does that mean? Does that indicate the house has a mould problem? No. Does it indicate a health hazard exists in the house? No. Does it mean the house contains 2.6E3 CFUs Cladosporium? No. Does it even mean that the smudge contains 2.6E3 CFUs Cladosporium? NO! Does it even mean that I actually analyzed the smudge? NO!!! For all we know, the 2.6E3 CFUs Cladosporium could be the normal background count of the entire shower wall, and the smudge is a biofilm growing on that mould.)

Then, what does it mean? Answer: The laboratory report is completely and entirely meaningless because there were NO a priori questions being asked and there were no DQOs established to determine if the lab results would properly answer the unasked question. Finally, we have NO information that the lab is even capable of properly analyzing for mould! (Any lab that tries to interpret the data should NEVER be used.)

Result ? If the lab report is used, there will be confusion, bad advice, poor conclusions, possible law suits, and a complete waste of the client?s money.

If you would like to see the practical establishment of DQOs, you can see how I wrote the sampling protocol for the State of Colorado in their new regulations for the assessment of methamphetamine contamination in homes that have been identified as meth-labs. Those sections are Appendix A and Attachment to Appendix A of the regulation found at http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/op/regs/boardofhealth/101403methlabrules.pdf and the complete risk assessment model is at http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/hm/methlabcleanuplevelsupport.pdf

I hope that sheds some light on mould sampling. By the way, I am on the ASTM International committee that has been tasked with writing the new Standard Sampling and Analysis protocols for moulds. My peers are not unlike me, and these are the thought processes that will go into the standard.

But then, those are just my opinions, and I think rain is wet; so what do I know, eh?

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(Having just learned that I can edit these posts, I have erased my old website and added our new web address - that is the only edit made - Cheers, Oct. 29, 2005)


Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Addendum (I forgot the requisite disclaimer?.)


(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Caoimh?n P. Connell


Originally Posted By: dplummer
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Caoimhin, Thank You for your quick response. I will follow up on the links you provided. We are very informal on this board. Hope you don’t mind me addressing on a first name basis. Please, call me Doug. Mr. Plummer is my father. Cheers! Doug


Originally Posted By: bkelly2
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When I see something in the shower or elsewhere that is questionable I call it out as “organic growth”. Then I reccomend that it be evaluated by a competent person with remedy as necessary.


Maybe it is mold maybe not, call an expert.


--
"I used to be disgusted, Now I try to Be amused"-Elvis Costello

Originally Posted By: bkelly1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/f/fungus.JPG ]


[ Image: http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/f/fungus_1.JPG ][/list]


Originally Posted By: jrivera
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Mr. Connell that was good stuff.


Originally Posted By: dandersen
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When I find mould, I do moisture intrusion testing to attempt to determine the source of excessive moisture that is producing this growth. I address the point of the moisture intrusion and simply note that there is evidence of a mold like substance growing as a result of this excessive moisture. I then recommend an action to control the moisture conditions creating the issue, then throw in a disclaimer stating that further testing of the mold substance should be based on the decision of the client.


I agree that advising further testing is a liability issue. We do not see very many lawsuits against home inspectors for making these costly recommendations without cause, however they are out there and they will occur and you are liable.

I feel the reason for these low lawsuit numbers is because the client generally runs from the property when the mold issue arises due to public hysteria. However, this does not release you from your liability from the current homeowner for causing the client to run if it could be proven.


Originally Posted By: gporter
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Mr. Connell have you ever challenged the press to stop causing the so-called mould health problem panic.



Gary Porter


GLP’s Home and Mold Inspections LLC


Orlando, Fl 32828


321-239-0621


www.homeandmoldinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Caoimh?n P. Connell
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Hello Gary ?


I have addressed the media regarding many issues including mould. Over the years, as a result of these interactions, I have developed a very low professional opinion of today?s profession of journalism. It is my opinion that today?s journalist is far, far more interested in a ripping good yarn full of emotion, pathos and hyperbole than objectivity. Today?s journalist isn?t about to let facts get in the way of a really good story.

As an example, recently a ?newspaper of record? did a small piece on me and spent two hours interviewing me. In the end, they published a piece that was only about 40% accurate, and remarkably identified me as ?the only certified Industrial Hygienist in the State of Colorado.? It is difficult for me to understand how supposedly educated people can possibly screw up objective information to such a degree.

I very recently criticized the Centers for Disease Control for referring to petroleum products and pesticides as ?toxins,? and the EPA for referring to ?toxic moulds.? Although the CDC never replied, the EPA stupidly defended itself by saying that they felt is was important to communicate in layman?s terms rather than be technically correct. How backwards is that? In other words, the EPA is happy to propagate myths and provide wrong information, so long as everyone understands it. Good Gawd ? only a PhD could come up with something so condescending and asinine.

I have watched news reports of some of my investigations, and it is beyond frustrating to hear how reporters can get such simple facts COMPLETELY wrong. I have virtually no faith whatever in today?s media, and I filter virtually everything I hear from the ?news.?

But that?s just me and my biases, isn?t it?

Cheers,
Caoimh?n P. Connell
President,
Cranky Old Chemists Society

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG



Originally Posted By: dedwards
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Me too. Parents used to say…“Believe none of what you hear and only about 10% of what you see.” Pretty good advice


Originally Posted By: gporter
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I watch Fox News only



Gary Porter


GLP’s Home and Mold Inspections LLC


Orlando, Fl 32828


321-239-0621


www.homeandmoldinspections.com

Originally Posted By: lewens
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Gary


No there is an unbiased view of the world.


Not



Just my usual 12.5 cents


From The Great White North Eh?
NACHI-CAN
www.aciss-brant.com
www.certifiedadulttrainingservices.com/

Originally Posted By: rwand1
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Recently thanks to CNN and misreporting and sensationalism Toronto was being labelled as havig yet another SARS type outbreak in a nursing home. Turns out the most likely culprit is Legionaires Disease (a bacteria) and not a virus caused by a dirty ventilation system and possibly through the water system (hot water). Of course because it hit a senior citizens residence where all the deaths were to elderly folks with already weakened defences due to age some moron in the press took liberty with the facts before all the facts and tests where complete.


Thank you CNN, get your facts straight before you announce the sky is falling!

There is no risk of this bacteria spreading outside the confines of the nursing home and the ventilation system is or will be undergoing further testing and sterilization.


--
Raymond Wand
Alton, ON
The value of experience is not in seeing much,
but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905
NACHI Member
Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)
http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: rcooke
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gporter wrote:
I watch Fox News only


Wow! Sorry Gary but if it is only FOX then I would do completely
with out news and be better informed the many others .


--
Roy Cooke Sr.

http://Royshomeinspection.com

Originally Posted By: rwand1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Aren’t FOX and CNN Republican propaganda machines?



Raymond Wand


Alton, ON


The value of experience is not in seeing much,


but in seeing wisely. - Sir William Osler 1905


NACHI Member


Registered Home Inspector (OAHI)


http://www.raymondwand.ca

Originally Posted By: jwilliams4
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Hell NO. CNN is called the Clinton News Network and FOX is just


plain uninformed news.


--
"not just an inspection, but an education"