New Jersey Licensing

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I believe that re-writing the law is the best course of action. The law, in its present form, is pure protectionism for established inspectors, whilst pretending to protect the consumer.


The governor of NJ should suspend it indefinitely, and ask the state attorney general to look into the licensing board, the legality of the law itself (seeing as how it all seems linked somehow to a single organization), and some last minute maneuverings to derail modifications to the bill this past year.

The question remains as to who the bill actually served. The consumer? I think not!


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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John O … Thanks for the code ref on Cement Boots … one of the funniest posts I have read … almost fell off my chair laughing. But really, doesn’t IBC 1902 on Concrete Foot Anchors supercede that as it is more restrictive? … icon_eek.gif


One of the best ways to get legislation changed is to organize, and get together with other state organizations that have an interest in that to propose alternates and amendments. You may want to also try contacting the state PE and AIA organizations ... I know the NYSSPE is fighting similar proposed legislation in NY, and they are for more modest HI licensing (see that thread). Maybe even contact the state realtor organizations, since I would imagine a very limited supply of HI's would make a deal harder to put together quickly. There is power in numbers that gets legislators attention and responsiveness.

Just my 2 quarters, even though I am from NY.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Phillip R. Hinman
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In November I finished the required schooling and recently took and passed the state exam (ASHII Test!!)


I have been attending the local ASHI meetings in hope of finding a licensed inspector to mentor to me for free!!!


I actually got 3 to agree!!! I have completed 7 mentored inspections and need another 43!! I do believe my 30+ years in the residential construction business made it possible to persuade the inspectors I would not take up a lot if any of their time during the mentored inspection.


I do not believe newbies without any construction experience will quite so lucky!!


BTW I have read many times that you don’t need a construction background to be a good inspector. I held my opinion until I went out with some guys and read some reports. HOGWASH!!! Those without any construction experience are at distinct disadvantage!!


I was able to identify materials and procedures used in the construction process some the seasoned inspectors were only able to address by " get … to look at the problem".


I will not have to ask to bring in numerous experts in a certain field to help a buyer make an informed decision!!! Realtors have told me about inspectors suggesting as many as 7 experts to be brought in one house to complete the information needed to make their buying decision!!!


Thanks for this forum to present my views!


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I have always believed (and expressed those beliefs on this board) that a construction background really helps. It only makes sense. Doesn’t a auto mechanic make for a good auto inspector? I know many disagree with Phillip and me, and many good inspectors were never in the trades, but one can’t deny how valuable a construction background is.


I'll say something I know I'll get hammered for but here goes:

In general, I find that inspectors who come from the trades perform the best inspections and write the worst reports. Inspectors who come from the corporate or tech world do the worst inspections and write the nicest reports. A home inspection relies on both the ability to perform an inspection and the ability to relay that information in the form of a report. Therefore a home inspection is only as good as its weakest link.

Nick


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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And sadly, many HI orgs (and legislation) will not count those years of related (construction, design, plumbing, electrical, etc) experience toward membership or licensing criteria. What’s wrong with THAT picture…



Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Phillip R. Hinman
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Nick, I agree with the report writing issue. During my schooling it was obvious that the tradesmen struggled mightily with that aspect. I thought the course did a good job of explaining the urgency to be clear and concise. “Where, why and what to do about the problem” was drummed into our heads!!!


Fortunately I learned how to describe and deal with construction issues with homeowners through my remodeling business. I ate a lot of money early on not writing good specs for a project in lieu of descent plans.

We had some professionals in the class who had no problem writing the report so they covered their butt with the correct words such as "appears, could be" etc but missed some of the necessary details that a customer should know because they are paying for them.

I believe the industry owes the customer some expertise somewhere in the process rather than the "identify a problem" I hear from the non construction experienced people and the teachers of the course.

Thanks Joe for your thoughts on counting experience. The state of NJ and the board thought having experienced people in the class would enhance the schooling for all. I don't agree because 90% of my time was wasted listening to construction 101 from a Canadian textbook!!! And furthermore the 300 hours of classroom work was a ridiculous amount of time for anyone to endure! We all know the field experience is the best teacher!!

Thanks,

Phil

Just my thoughts!!


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Absolutely correct, Phil.


The problem with all of this is that the HI business is an in-exact science, full of best-guesses. Theres the reality in it all. I believe that good report writing isnt made up of the "appears to be" kind of stuff. Nor is it necessarily contained in a checkist format. I'm not knocking either, it's just my feeling.

The most important thing to do is t properly set the client's expectations, and t COMMUNICATE throughout the inspection process. That's what they are paying for. Our job is to identify the good, the bad, and the ugly. If I know how to fix the problem, that's a feather in my cap. Some HIs get into trouble because they think they know how to fix stuff, but when the contractor comes, the guestimate the HI gave was way off the mark.

I steer clear of this stuff.

My personal feelings are that it is much harder to teach someone how to communicate effectively and professionally, in a verbal or written format, than to teach them how to be a good inspector. My inspections improve everytime I go out. They will continue to improve throughout my HI career. As construction technology, material, and techniques improve, many of the "old standards" of construction will evolve with them. So, even the experienced craftsman is forever in a learning curve, of sorts.

You must also take into account those of us who have managed large-scale projects, where supervision of various trades was involved. This experience is just as relevent as being in the trades. Because, we cant be in ALL the trades at the same time.


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Philip,


I can believe that in some cases a H.I. could recommend up to 7 experts to "complete the information to make their buying decision". One reason could be that the H.I. is not giving "cost of cure" estimates for items in need of repair or replacement. As Joe said, it would be wise to stay away from providing estimates in the report. I do give some estimates verbally during the inspection if I feel comfortable about the price, but I try to avoid it.

Also, there can be a situation where the magnitude of the problem might not be visible until the contractor starts removing finish materials, so there is no way for us to know the extent of the problem. For example, if you are recommending upgrading of knob and tube wiring, you don't really know the extent of the K&T, so I would recommend to have an electrician provide a cost estimate.
And here's to ya if you can say with confidence whether a 30 year old oil fired warm air furnace has a good or bad heat exchanger. I'll bet some of those 7 recommended experts are because of the CYA attitude necessary to survive in this business.

Phil, you've seen 7 inspections. I think you'll find that after you do a few hundred or a few thousand inspections and you are assuming liability for those inspections, you may change your tune alittle bit.
I'm sure you are aware of the NJ minimum standard that "The home inspector shall provide recommendations where material defects were found to repair, replace, or monitor a system or component or to obtain examination and analysis by a qualified professional, tradesman, or service technician without determining the methods, materials or cost of corrections".


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Neal stated it better that I could have…



Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Phillip R. Hinman
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Just a few of the things I have heard come out of inspectors mouths while at inspections and the local HI meetings.


"Get a qualified roofer to look at the way the valley was installed. It is not woven and therefore installed improperly". This inspector has no construction experience and 20 years in the business.

" The vapor barrier on the insulation is installed incorrectly. Insulation CONTRACTORS do it wrong all the time!". As my father always told me their are carpenters and people who do carpentry work! An experienced construction person knows how this stuff happens without slamming an industry!! Same guy!

Serious ventilation problems were overlooked on 2 homes because the inspector who in this case happened to be a tradesman did not understand how the structure was built!!

There is a licensed NJ inspector who talks about faking a page so he can go out to call his boss when confronted with something he hasn't seen before and readily admits his lack of construction experience is at fault!

I only said those without construction experience are at a disadvantage to those who have it.

The reference to the report with seven referrals was reviewed by a PE who is mentoring me and he also said it was excessive.

Although not done to " Industry Standards" I have been inspecting residential and commercial properties for 30+ years as a carpenter contractor and general contractor. I'm also the VP of the Tri-County Construction Code Association.

I too would recommend the required number of referrals as warranted but my belief is inspectors without construction experience will be forced to refer more to cover their butts.

I can recognize materials and poor procedures having done the work myself. And I believe my experience is added value to the inspection!!!

I appreciate your comments and thoughts!!!


Originally Posted By: Richard Coleti
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Phil


SI may have the same situation as NJ. Myself and a few others are visiting the NY legislature soon to explain that grandfathering does not give the industry experienced HIs. Many of the HIs on SI are following the NJ law. Your story is one of many that plagues NJ HI industry. Myself and a few other HIs have 1000 + HI and still we don’t think grandfathering is a good thing for the potential home owners of SI, NY.


The problem with grandfathering is the potential power in gives a fist full of covetous HIs. The grandfathering gives the feeling of superiority to those who qulaifiy. Those on SI who claim they performed 10K to 12K HI in 4-5 years are the HI who will get their grandfather to give them the license. Phil you now can see the problem.


People will tell you that the cost is the major reason why the HI will call in the troops. Not so, it is the time factor they must adhere to in order to perform 3-5 HIs a day. Most of these HI on SI don’t even write the report.


They have no time.


Rich


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Rich,


So what do you propose?


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Phil,


There's no question that your construction experience is added value to the inspection. It sounds like you want to do the job the right way, and as you have observed already, we need more guys doing the job the right way and less guys taking the shortcuts. You're points are valid now that you have explained the situations.

I have to agree with you that 10 hours per module seems excessive. I have a situation that I am able to take the courses for free, but sitting through 10 hours seems pretty tedious.

I'm curious about the ventilation issues you mentioned. Can you just describe the situation that was overlooked?

Neal


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Rich,


The REAL problem is that the need for licensing is bogus, but no one has the balls to tell the legislature that. NY cant justify the need. Period.

Grandfathering doesnt guarantee you a good inspector. Neither does experience, as all your experience could be BAD. The truth is that the licensing frenzy doesnt guarantee you anything, or protect the consumer from anything. Its protectionism for the "established" inspectors turf.

And, what do you mean that the SI inspectors are following the NJ law? How and why would they follow something like that? Its meaningless to them...

Now, to state that licensing is coming to NY is absolutely defeatist in nature, unless of course you WANT licensing to protect your turf.

The math... Hmmm...At 5 inspections every day, for 7 days per week, for 52 straight weeks, nets you 1820 inspections per year (I'd be dead, by then). That rate for 5 years (no time to pee) nets you 9106 inspections. Not the 10,000 or 12,000 you mentioned. Are these guys wearing rocket belts when they inspect, or what? Seems high to me. Even allowing 2 hours for inspection, including all travel time, etc, makes 5 inspections a 10-hour day. We dont have 10 hours of daylight to work with for a good piece of the year. Where are your numbers coming from? You referred to an inspector's experience with performing over 10,000 inspections. That assumes only 1.

So, who are you and a "few other inspectors"? And, what are you proposing to stop the two proposed bills in assembly, and one in the state senate?


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: Richard Coleti
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Joe F


I mentioned following, meaning following the actual status of the law not adhering to it. Sorry

Rich


Originally Posted By: Richard Coleti
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Joe F


Proposal

//Register with the state //Get E&O //Let market competition do the rest.


Rich


Originally Posted By: Richard Coleti
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Joe F


$$$$ is needed to scap the bills. And know what I mean

Rich


Originally Posted By: Phillip R. Hinman
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Neal,


On recent inspections with mentors I have seen the following ventilation problems left unaddressed to the best of my knowledge by the mentors.

1. Missing proper vents in tray ceiling. They need to be the length of the lowest sloped portion on the tray when the tray starts on the outside wall of the home.

2. Blocking of the continuous soffit vents in older construction-70-80 ish- with wood soffits and fascia. Often the continuos soffit vents are at the end of the soffit where a subfascia, used to control the end of the soffit material, blocks 1/2 the vent!

3. Lack of proper vents in older homes not allowing the soffit vents to work adequately.

4. The biggest issue is really assuming the existence of any type of ventilation is sufficient to do the job. Premature roof and sheathing life spans are severely impacted by lack of proper ventilation. Vented aluminum soffit on a retrofit does not mean the proper holes were cut in the existing soffit to allow ventilation to take place!!

These are typically easy fixes for a potentially severe problem. I have spent much time in the past explaining to my clients, whether new home or remodel, the importance of maintaining the flow of air in attics and crawlspaces.

I forgot to mention on Saturday I got a call from a friend who works at an engineering firm I do roof truss inspection for to look at a problem with his house. He had a home inspector who was recommended by a family member to inspect the house.

He told me on the phone there was moisture on the bottom of the sheathing so went out and was in utter disbelief at what I saw!

In the entire attic there was one gable louver and water was and had been dripping from the underside of the sheathing!! What appears to be mold covered about 60% of the underside of the sheathing!!! We will know today if it is in fact mold.

There was a severe backdraft in the water heater vent and numerous gas leaks!! Several other structural issues were overlooked that will cost $$$ to fix.

The inspector is not new to the business and I'm sure unlicensed in NJ to date. He is although an ASHI candidate!!

Although a newbie I am finding out fast why licensing is being required!!! I hear these stories all the time since I know many lawyers and real estate professional!! This was my first eyewitness to such a poor inspection!!

I New Jersey I am sure grandfathering has given many guys a free ride as Joe pointed out!! Better testing of existing inspectors is needed along with the classroom work.

Unfortunately, in my opinion licensing has attracted the early retirees and friends of those (most with no experience) in the business who can massage them through the mentoring and supervised inspection requirements and not starve. I witnessed it first hand in my classes. I met about 35 people getting into the business. A story for another post!

Phil


Originally Posted By: Tom Logan
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Phil


The HIs defending the NJ law are most likely the HIs that have a license number and majority are ASHI members. The NJ law only serves a few HIs.

There a a few HIs on this BB that most likely conform to that mold. Phil you can see that the law only protects and serves them not the consumer.

Phil what should NJ do?

TL


Originally Posted By: Tom Logan
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Phil


In NY the proposal talks about a carson and dunlop material. The way the propsal is written the instructors are not even certified teaching instructors. Phil do you have certified instructors in NJ?

TL