Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Many questions.
I was told that the use of non-metalic cable (known as Romex) is not allowed in Illinois except in small areas of Will county.
I tend to like wire in conduit because I believe that it is a superior technique and covers all bases.
Had an inspection in unincorporated Gurnee (lake county) and called out the wiring (it was all Romex) and there were double taps on the grounds and the panel had 325 amps worth of branch breakers but only a 100 amp disconnect.
The seller's electrician called me and tried to explain that Romex qwas allowed in unincorporated Gurnee. Said I didn't care, because Romex is unsafe, and besides, look at the rest of the penel and 4/5ths of the outlets where they merely punched down the wires instead of using screws.
SO:
1) Is conduit more safe than Romex.
2) Is such a panel supposed to be upgraded, like to 200 amps. I have always followed the rule of thumb that a 100 amp main disconnect panel should not have much more tnan 125 amps of breakers in it.
3) What is the rule in Illinois?
4) What about the NEC? Is Romex allowed, discouraged, etc.
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Residential.
Chciago demands that everything (now including low voltage wiring) be in conduit. The surrounding area is highly influenced by the Chicago codes.
I know that some electricians (and the Union) see it as more work for their members (and therefore more money) but wouldn't you say that it is also inherently more safe?
If there is any fire or short, the incident would be enclosed in metal tubing (EMT) and grounded safely (to the conduit housing). It also provides protection from physical damage.
I realize that low voltage wiring may be a little too much, but don't we try to err on the side of safety?
Originally Posted By: darmstrong This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
In Virginia, there is nothing but Romex in residential. Romex is designed for residential use. Conduit is only required in certain commercial applications and more and more, we are seeing Romex used in commercial work.
I've been doing this for over ten years and have never seen a home wired using conduit. You only see conduit used where wiring is exposed in a utility area or where it runs through an outside wall. I do agree however, that wiring through conduit in a home would be the best system, but just not cost effective.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
. . . the panel had 325 amps worth of branch breakers but only a 100 amp disconnect.
Will, this point is irrelevant.
wdecker wrote:
Said I didn't care, because Romex is unsafe. . .
This is just plain wrong. Romex (NM) is listed for its use and is accepted throughout the United States. It just happens that IL doesn't allow it in most of their State.
Be careful about making statements that have no support from industry professionals.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
We are at two ends of a spectrum.
In my area, Chicago and the surrounding suburbs, we almost alwasy see conduit.
In Illinois, the one 'defect' that is defined in the state HI law is 'significantly deficient', which is defined as 'an item, component or system that either does not function or poses a safety hazard.'
Is Romex safe? Not safe relative to something else (knob and tube) or safe enought, but just pkain safe.
Consider that houses with no GFCIs were considered save as recently as 15 years ago (and are still considered 'code' (grandfathered)) but were they safe? Is a house that was constructed in 1956 and has no GFCI safe, or should it be defected in a report because it does not meet todays standard of safety?
Maybe these are more theoretical and theological discussions, but I would like to get the sense of my brothers.
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
There is no limit.
I commonly see 100 amp service with ten branch circuits ranging from 15 to 20 amps each plus two 50 amp breakers leading to additional panels. These additional panels have 5 or 10 misc breakers as well.
Granted, a 200 amp service may better serve the potential load, but the likelihood of an overload from use of all branch circuits simultaneously is highly unlikely.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: wdecker This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
The one in question had 11 15 amps, 1 40 amp plus 6 20 amps. 325 amps or more than 3 times the penel rating. Doesn’t that bother you?
BTW, some of the Romex (above a suspended ceiling in the finished basement) was just tacked to the bottom of the joists. Some was notched or holed through the joists. A somewhat inconsistant installation, wouldn't you say?
Originally Posted By: apightling This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey Will,
I was required to use conduit for wiring in my basement when I put in a suspended ceiling (not an air handling space) with light fixtures in the cieling. I asked to use romex and was told it would not pass Hoffman Estates inspection . . .
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
. . . more than 3 times the penel rating. Doesn't that bother you?
No. Each branch circuit has it's own OCPD and the service disconnect does not exceed its rated capacity.
A standard Square D, 200 amp service panel holds 44 (I believe) breakers. Even if you placed only 15 amp breakers in the panel board, the total equals 660 amps. It just doesn't matter
wdecker wrote:
BTW, some of the Romex (above a suspended ceiling in the finished basement) was just tacked to the bottom of the joists. Some was notched or holed through the joists. A somewhat inconsistant installation, wouldn't you say?
Poor installation? Possibly.
Is NM unsafe? No.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: pdacey This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
BTW, some of the Romex (above a suspended ceiling in the finished basement) was just tacked to the bottom of the joists. Some was notched or holed through the joists. A somewhat inconsistant installation, wouldn't you say?
Sounds pretty typical to me, provided t it was stapled correctly and the notching and boring did not exceed the maximum allowed for the joists.
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Will,
To find out if the panel is overloaded you would have to do a load calculation, not just look at the total of the circuit breakers. I have 200 amp service in my home, and have 505 amps worth of breakers in the panel. If you do a load calculation, which assigns a %of load usage to each type of electrical item in the home, the load is well within the rating of the panel.
Romex is a safe wiring system in residential applications when installed and used per the NEC.
Originally Posted By: Dan Leleika This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
wdecker wrote:
......
The seller's electrician called me and tried to explain that Romex qwas allowed in unincorporated Gurnee. Said I didn't care, because Romex is unsafe, and besides, look at the rest of the penel and 4/5ths of the outlets where they merely punched down the wires instead of using screws.
SO:
1) Is conduit more safe than Romex.
2) Is such a panel supposed to be upgraded, like to 200 amps. I have always followed the rule of thumb that a 100 amp main disconnect panel should not have much more tnan 125 amps of breakers in it.
3) What is the rule in Illinois?
4) What about the NEC? Is Romex allowed, discouraged, etc.
....
You are correct in saying that most of Illinois does not allow Romex...But, this is not true in every single township and unless you know each and every towns adopted codes, you just don't know.
When you reported it in your report, Did you refer it to a certified electrician for further evaluation? I think that is a Yes based on the sellers electrician calling you. Once, We as Inspectors, refer it to an expert..then it is in their hands to decide if it is code for that town and if the Installation was done correctly. If the Electrician certifies that evrything is ok, it is not up to Us (the HIs) to argue the point. The Liability is now in his hands.
Originally Posted By: apightling This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
That’s what I miss most about the Chicago area . . . subtlety . . . I have to admit Hoffman Estates did go from just crusty to upper crust when I left . . . . . .
Originally Posted By: bgentry This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’m just baffled by this post. I can’t even conceive the notion of romex not being acceptable for home wiring. That is all I ever see, with the exception of some BX cable. As long as it is installed correctly, romex is completely safe. No matter what materials are used, homeowner DIYers will always find a way to make something safe into something dangerous.
I believe what you are telling us, I just can't understand what drove the misconception into law. Crazy.
-- Bradley S. Gentry
Superior Home Inspection, LLC
Harrisonburg, Charlottesville, &
Elkton, VA
www.superiorllc.net
I have to admit Hoffman Estates did go from just crusty to upper crust when I left . . . . . .