Questions from Tulsa Electrical Seminar

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Quote:
1. What are the repair options when circuit breakers are double tapped?

2. So what if wiring in the attic or crawl space is not stapled down! Why is this a problem?

3. Is it a problem if someone has used too heavy a gage of wire? For example, they've used 8 AWG when they should have used 10 AWG (for the dryer or A/C for example)

4. What appliances or equipment in a home needs to be on it's own dedicated circuit?

5. If a home has aluminum wiring would you discourage the buyer from purchasing the home?

6. Sometimes a handyman will staple new wiring to the exterior siding, the sheetrock wall or ceiling in a garage, along a baseboard, etc. Is this a problem?

John Murphy
River City Realty



Quote:
Question:

What, exactly, is the deal with FPE, Zinsco and Pushmatic panels?

Verbiage to explain the problem. How do we explain to Realtors (who might be scared of a killed deal) that those panels are defected even when a great number of conde inspectors and electricans don't think they are a problem.

My best friend is a master electrician, used to be the asst chief electrical inspector fo City of Chicago and is not an instructor in the Union school.

He had no idea that these panels were defected and it took me a while to get the necessary documentation to prove it to him. I don't want to have to haul along all this documentation and have to produce it for every Realtor and seller's electrician who protests my call.



Hope this helps.


Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com



Quote:
Joe,
A problem that I've encountered several times concerns arc fault breakers. In Arkansas we are required to verify polarity of outlets. I've had a couple of newer homes that my tester keeps tripping the arc fault breaker, why. On some of the breakers it will not show anything. I've also had this happen once or twice with GFCI's, why?

Most of the homes I use the tester on there is no problem.

Why is this happening and how do I report it?

Tom Bramlett
A to Z Home Inspections



--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: mpettitt
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All good questions, how about answers


Originally Posted By: mtimpani
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Yes, answers would help us all…



Thank you, MarkTimpani


www.pridepropertyinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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I know the answer’s, and most Qualified Home Inspectors should know them too, that’s why I posted them here.


Tell us what the answers are in your opinion!

![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
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I am not a home inspector (just a fan)… i did pass the nachi test though … but since nobody has taken a stab at these questions yet I figure I will… if I am not right then we can learn from it all. icon_smile.gif


Quote:
1. What are the repair options when circuit breakers are double tapped?

Installing a separate breaker for each tap or pigtailing both wires to the breaker. Unless of course the breaker is rated for 2 wires in this case it is not a double tap.

Quote:

2. So what if wiring in the attic or crawl space is not stapled down! Why is this a problem?
Strain relief in case accidentally pulled on by someone?

Quote:
3. Is it a problem if someone has used too heavy a gage of wire? For example, they've used 8 AWG when they should have used 10 AWG (for the dryer or A/C for example)
This is not a problem electrically, but it is important to ensure that whatever terminations are used on the other end are suited for the wire sizes used. It is not acceptable to trim down strands of wire to fit into a smaller lug if you have used a larger wire. Nor is it acceptable to overstuff a wire nut. So I would say as long as the termination points at each end are rated for the wire size then this is just fine.

Quote:
4. What appliances or equipment in a home needs to be on it's own dedicated circuit?
I live in Canada and I beleive the answers here are.. Furnace(s), Microwave, Refrigerator, Dishwasher, disposal, Air Conditioning, Stove, electric hot water if you have it, central vacuum if you have it, washer and/or gas dryer, electric dryer, and I might be forgetting some. In the US I beleive it is the same except that the fridge and microwave may be on the 20A kitchen circuits (?).

Quote:
5. If a home has aluminum wiring would you discourage the buyer from purchasing the home?
As someone who has previously lived in a place with Aluminum wire I would say probably not. It is just important for someone to know the risks associated, and understand that aluminum wiring is best handled by professionals if an issue arises. It should probably be noted that an inspection of the system every couple years by a professional to make sure the connections are still in good shape is a good idea. Any problems that are showing now would have to be brought up (if there were any). Especially if there were signs of overheating or loose connections.

Quote:
6. Sometimes a handyman will staple new wiring to the exterior siding, the sheetrock wall or ceiling in a garage, along a baseboard, etc. Is this a problem?
All guesses here: The siding is always wrong, I believe, even if NMWU or UF cable is used. You would need IMC or RMC with compression fittings, or PVC conduit. Sheetrock would likely be out as it can't provide secure enough support for the staples (if someone pulled on the wire it would come right down...) . Along the baseboard is too low and easily subject to physical damage. So I think in all of these cases unless conduit is used then it is a problem. (?)


Quote:

What, exactly, is the deal with FPE, Zinsco and Pushmatic panels?


FPE breakers had a reputation for not tripping under the circumstances when they were supposed to, thus not providing adequate overcurrent protection. Additionally, the bus design is under scrutiny: There are two types of slots in the bus, E and F slots. An E slot will accept both full size and half size breakers, while an F slot only accepts a full size breaker. Unfortunately it is easy for someone without any skill to wedge a half height breaker into the lower half of the F slot, which would likely provide poor electrical conductivity under moderate+ load. It would also damage the breaker by bending the pin that attaches to the bus.

Zinsco breakers I believe the problem had to do with the use of an aluminum bus and subsequent odixation problems that would create high resistance connections.

I thought pushmatic breakers panels were ok??




So there... I tried... I'm interested to see how much I got right. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I missed one…


Quote:
A problem that I've encountered several times concerns arc fault breakers. In Arkansas we are required to verify polarity of outlets. I've had a couple of newer homes that my tester keeps tripping the arc fault breaker, why. On some of the breakers it will not show anything. I've also had this happen once or twice with GFCI's, why?


I am guessing that since an outlet tester needs to send some current from hot to ground, in order to test the ground, that a really sensitive AFCI or GFCI may see this is as a ground fault condition and trip as a result.


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Looks Good Joey, without tearing into the subjects in more detail, and it is apparent that you have spent some time and have learned a lot about the electrical systems in dwellings. icon_smile.gif



Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: Joey D’Adamo
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jtedesco wrote:
Looks Good Joey, without tearing into the subjects in more detail, and it is apparent that you have spent some time and have learned a lot about the electrical systems in dwellings. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Thanks Joe, that means a lot coming from someone with your background and knowledge.

My grandfather used to work in construction and I followed him around like a puppy dog for a lot of my childhood. From him and the people he knew, I learned quite a lot from a young age. Fast-forward and now I have a father-in-law who is a master electrician with his own business.. So you could say I have been around it a lot of my life. For some reason I became a computer programmer, though. (strange world) Something always keeps bringing me back and I have a feeling when I have the means and the time that I want to change careers. I've just always had more interest in it, and more desire to work a hands-on type job where the scenery changes every day on different jobs.

Oh and on my bookshelf is a copy of the 2002 CEC and the Handbook. Call me strange but I read them for fun... ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Quote:
5. If a home has aluminum wiring would you discourage the buyer from purchasing the home?

Joey D'Adamo wrote:
As someone who has previously lived in a place with Aluminum wire I would say probably not. It is just important for someone to know the risks associated, and understand that aluminum wiring is best handled by professionals if an issue arises. It should probably be noted that an inspection of the system every couple years by a professional to make sure the connections are still in good shape is a good idea. Any problems that are showing now would have to be brought up (if there were any). Especially if there were signs of overheating or loose connections.

Just a few observations on that one.

It's not a HI's job to discourage or encourage a client to buy an home. The job is just to present objective observations and facts so the client can make a more informed decision or request defects be corrected prior to the purchase.

If the house is in the 1960 to 1970 age range, it is very likely there is "old technology" smaller aluminum branch circuit wiring (#14 thru #10) ... which is a serious red flag safety hazard.

Spot check a few outlets by removing the cover (but never ever ever remove the receptacle) to check if copper pigtails with the proper connectors have been added. Also include appropriate references to CPSC documents and general warnings about old aluminum wiring in your report no matter what (e.g. there may be issues with homeowners insurance, and it's also more brittle where re-bending over time can cause a break in the wire).

Just my opinions and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Quote:
What, exactly, is the deal with FPE, Zinsco and Pushmatic panels?

All of those panels are old and have some general issues HI's should be aware of ... but the FPE panels (or more correctly the FPE breakers) are a red flag in my book. Lots of documentation of the problems with FPE panels/breakers, but there is limited documentation to back up red flagging Zinco and Pushmatic panels ... other than they are usually very old.

All three should be referred to a licensed electrician for evaluation, as many times disassembly which is beyond a home inspection is necessary to adequately evaluate. The exception is FPE panels where the breakers have not been upgraded with the newer replacement breakers and there may be other obvious issues (e.g. schorching at the buss) ... then I might go out on a limb an recommend replacement.

Just my opinions and 2-nickels ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: lkage
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Good info to read over again.


Thanks, guys. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Joe … as a fellow (former?) code enforcement official I know you tend to take more of a strict model code based view on many issues (with direct NEC quotes). But I would be curious as to what your responses and opinions on each of the items would be in terms of how a home inspector should approach these issues from more of a practical position. They are generally two different viewpoints.


I have a lot of respect for your knowledge of model electrical codes, but the application of those codes to practical based home inspection positions tends to be a little different viewpoint.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Bob:


I guess that if I was a Home Inspector I would be able to express those views, and would be able to make comments that satisfy your curiosity, and meet with your approval, however since I am not a Home Inspector I will avoid any further code comments.

Although not in Code Enforcement any more, I do make inspections of electrical systems in industrial occupancies on a regular basis when it involves an on site seminar.

If anyone needs any answers related to the NEC and wants a reference please send me an email message.

It's interesting that the NAHI convention soon to be held in Illinois will have a portion devoted to the One and Two Family Dwelling Electrical Systems as a CEU seminar including the NEC and IRC references!

I am confused as to why they need that type of training instead the typical SOP items?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jmurphy1
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Joe: Recently I met an excellent nachi inspector in my area and I am going to use him when I buy my next fixer upper or a client buys a house. He was an electrician prior to becoming an inspector. This is a big plus as far as I’m concerned.


I buy old homes and I will need this guy's expertise & suggestions when trying to figure out how to update from 60 amp to 100 amp service in the next old clunker I buy. The inspector I'm referring to is Sean Fraser and I think having a background in a skilled trade such as electrician, heating and a/c, building contractor, etc. is more impressive to me as a realtor than say for example which professional organization he belongs to (ie nachi, ashi, whatever).

I'm not saying you have to have a skilled trades type of background to be a top notch home inspector.

I do the repairs and updates myself and I need an inspector who can walk me through the process of doing repairs and updates etc. This is a big help to me in what I'm doing as a buyer and a realtor.

![icon_idea.gif](upload://6VKizmOm2U7YYmfXNtFW4XTwFVy.gif)


Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Joe you can be such a obstinate guy sometimes. icon_lol.gif Yeah I can be one too. icon_lol.gif


Why not just answer Robert's question?

It's simple, how would you write up those issues if you where a home inspector not a highly experienced NEC master?

Don't you think that would be a help to the HIs who read this forum?


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



icon_biggrin.gif You can say that again!


Bob

With my experience as an electrical inspector for a very long time I find it difficult to just give a one liner and be done with it!

I believe that the board here and any of my previous contacts with the members here have found detailed replies using the code acceptable and appreciated.

You do a good job here too and usually reply as necessary.

I would propose a challange to the Home Inspector who would allow me to "tag along" during an inspection, just how much would be missed?

NEC MASTER


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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jtedesco wrote:
![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) You can say that again!


My wife would gladly second that!

jtedesco wrote:
Bob

With my experience as an electrical inspector for a very long time I find it difficult to just give a one liner and be done with it!


Yeah I can understand that.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: jmurphy1
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe: I was wondering if you see double taps in a circuit breaker box where there are empty spaces for more breakers and someone was just too lazy to go buy a circuit breaker?


Also, my home has one or two double taps and I don't think these were done by a homeowner or handyman. I think the double taps were done when the electrician did the original wiring. Agree?

![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jmurphy1 wrote:
Joe: I was wondering if you see double taps in a circuit breaker box where there are empty spaces for more breakers and someone was just too lazy to go buy a circuit breaker?

Also, my home has one or two double taps and I don't think these were done by a homeowner or handyman. I think the double taps were done when the electrician did the original wiring. Agree?

![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)



I am not sure yet?

First, my questions to you are as follows:

1. What type of cabinet and panelboard are you describing, and are the CB's identified for two wires?

2. Whats size AWG wire are you talking about"

3. What type of insulation are you referring to?

4. Can you verify the correct Torque at the termination?

If you can supply an image "close up" there may be answers to your question?


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



bbadger wrote:
jtedesco wrote:
![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif) You can say that again!


My wife would gladly second that!

jtedesco wrote:
Bob

With my experience as an electrical inspector for a very long time I find it difficult to just give a one liner and be done with it!


Yeah I can understand that.


I am glad you can see my point Bob, I was getting ready to having a long and drawn out discussion and p.....g contest.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm