Appliances on GFCI

Originally Posted By: dmacy
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I seem to come across appliances like refrigerators and washer plugged into GFCI’s.


For example: Home has a countertop outlet within 6 feet of water but no dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Therefore the refer(No this is not the smokable type) So would you report installing a seperate outlet for the refer or would you let it go. And what about the washing machine?

I have a joke!! What do cannibus and Notre Dame have in common?

The both get smoked in bowls!!!

Thanks

Dave


Originally Posted By: aleleika
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dmacy wrote:
I seem to come across appliances like refrigerators and washer plugged into GFCI's.

For example: Home has a countertop outlet within 6 feet of water but no dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Therefore the refer(No this is not the smokable type) So would you report installing a seperate outlet for the refer or would you let it go. And what about the washing machine?

I have a joke!! What do cannibus and Notre Dame have in common?

The both get smoked in bowls!!!

Thanks

Dave


Dave, I was going to answer your question....but after your little joke I'm going to let you fend for yourself ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Maybe a Ohio fan can help you out. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
A. Dan Leleika
www.a-teamhomeinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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You might want to point out the lack on an individual for the fridge but the washing machine is pretty much going to be required to be GFCI after 2005. 210.8(A)(7) does not include the exception for an outlet behind an appliance. The only way a washer won’t need a GFCI is if it is not within 6’ of a sink. That could be a real long hose or the standpipe type drain.


A lot of folks will be replacing defective appliances. A properly working fridge or washer will NOT trip a GFCI.


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Quote:
Therefore the refer(No this is not the smokable type) So would you report installing a seperate outlet for the refer or would you let it go. And what about the washing machine?

I have a joke!! What do cannibus and Notre Dame have in common?

The both get smoked in bowls!!!


Ok.....is it me or too many references to MOJO in that response...I can see it now....sir your house is not stable because in my opinion it is spinning wildly out of control....lol

Ok......as greg said....but will add that the fridge can be on it's own 15A individual circuit if they so choose or it can be part of the countertop circuit......

Most of the time we will hit the dinning room recepts. and then catch the fridge and then a few on the counter..placing the GFCI recept. in the first one we hit on the counter protecting all after that...and of course another one on the counter as required by code.....

The key here is all can be on the same circuit but only the ones on the countertop need be GFCI.......likewise the individual 15A dedicated circuit ( yes, it can be 20A as well if you wish ) does not have to be GFCI at all..

For those code lovers.....Art 210.52(B)(1) ex. 2

Long live the CODE.........lol


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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Get used to appliances suppled by GFCIs. icon_cool.gif


I agree with Greg, an appliance in good working order will not trip GFCIs.

Usually what people call 'nuisance tripping' is just the GFCI working properly.

If a refrigerator was tripping a 20 amp breaker no one here would say replace the 20 with a 30 amp breaker.

But if a fridge trips a GFCI peoples response is to remove the GFCI.


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: pcarter
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Okay,


so if the water supply line to the ice maker is within 2 feet of the 15 amp outlet for the refrig. You don't need a GFCI ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif) I am a bit confused here.


Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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i use the “new” rule that says…“all kitchen and bathroom outlets SHOULD be gfci protected.” but just because you install a gfci outlet doesn’t mean every thing after it is going to be gfci protected. if you hook up the line and load on the same (line) terminals you have just bypassed the outlet to the next outlet. just like wire nutting the hots and neutral together and running a single wire off of each to said terminals. thats how we hook up a bath room outlet and don’t protect the overhead light. althoug i do agree that if the fridge is working right, i won’t trip the gfci. hope that helps. icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Quote:
Okay,

so if the water supply line to the ice maker is within 2 feet of the 15 amp outlet for the refrig. You don't need a GFCI I am a bit confused here.


Ok..nothing in the code refers to being close to water has to be GFCI...it refers to location as stated in the NEC that is has to be GFCI. I am not sure where the ruling on near water made it have to be GFCI except that it gave specific locations and distances in regards to being GFCI for code.

As for the issue of "new" code in regards to GFCI..I would guess that depends totally on the NEC being used in a given area...with in addition of the wetbar and laundry sink and so on addition it simply added more areas to the NEC that requires GFCI.

Quote:
but just because you install a gfci outlet doesn't mean every thing after it is going to be gfci protected. if you hook up the line and load on the same (line) terminals you have just bypassed the outlet to the next outlet.


Now jay if the GFCI is installed correctly and I would hope it is tested as such it will protect down stream....the common concept of feeding a few recepts first then the fridge and then the first recept. on the counter with a GFCI to protect a few after that is COMMON in our industry and done every day......and correct when wired correctly, because if the electrician can't wire a GFCI correctly they need to leave the industry and well...sell cars or something else.

Can the GFCI be bypassed...sure it can by the example you stated in the quote above but is not the norm for most installations on dwellings of more than 1 bathroom where we would do a common feed to all bathroom recepts....protected by one GFCI at the first bathroom fed.

Also can you direct me to the SHOULD rule for GFCI's on all recepts in a kitchen....I will agree in bathrooms....but not kitchens.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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pabernathy wrote:


Also can you direct me to the SHOULD rule for GFCI's on all recepts in a kitchen....I will agree in bathrooms....but not kitchens.


Paul. i agree with you, but i was just stating another posability. we only have one bath in each unit, the outlet is wire upstream from the over head light, and we use a gfci outlet that is set up for just that. they have to sets of "stab" hole for the screws on each terminal. as for the "SHOULD" part of my post, someone posted a list with dates on it stating the year and the "rule". not sure of it's origin and i can't remember who posted it, but is says "1996 All kitchen counters, not just those within 6 feet of a sink". maybe my post was misunderstood (or i messed up), but all counter outlets should be gfci, not necasarily the whole kitchen. but for some reason i can't link an image, it won't let me. oh and the spell checker is down too. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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I hear ya brother…icon_smile.gif


Mainly it is needed to be understood by most that not all recepts in the kitchen need to be GFCI...nor do the dedicated plugs for things like garbage disp, diswashers and trash compactors as well....and of course our good friend the fridge.

I can't be sure but heck I might have posted a history of the GFCI....but anyway they just seem to add to it but always had people ask me if it has to do with so many feet from a water as the main reason for GFCI( well it can in some cases...pools and spas and now wet bars and launtry sinks and well I digress )...well water plays a big part in all things...lol..as we HI's know....but the requirements for GFCI are specific in that the NEC tells us what has to be on GFCI....now what all we CAN put on GFCI if we want to...![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Heck someone one could put all the 15-20A branch circuits on them ( excluding those now protected by AFCI anyway...lol ) and be fine....BUT that is the guy I want to bid against when trying to get the next electrical job..thehehhe

Here is a link to a image..on a slide show for 2002 NEC Changes

http://www.electrician.com/2002nec1_8/2002_nec_files/slide0029.htm


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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spoken like a true bid-warring sub-contractor Paul. it’s dog eat dog, so chase that bone brotha, they’re nipping at your tail. icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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lol…yep…sad thing is my guys are yelling at me because I am spending many of my days lately doing inspections…lol…they say stuff like…


" Man, I remember when paul actually came to the job site " or " Wow...paul is still an electrician...I thought he retired "

Fact is..I see them almost everyday and I will work circles around them whipper snappers...thehehehe..Kids Today... ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
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I’ll bet thay don’t bitch too much on payday. icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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man…you hit that right on the head…it is about the ONLY day they go overboard to kiss up to me.


Like I will give them a raise or something.....NOT....


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: ekartal5
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I have never recommended a GFCI for a refrigerator. Is this new?


Erol Kartal
ProInspect


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
Ok......as greg said....but will add that the fridge can be on it's own 15A individual circuit if they so choose or it can be part of the countertop circuit......

Most of the time we will hit the dinning room recepts. and then catch the fridge and then a few on the counter..placing the GFCI recept. in the first one we hit on the counter protecting all after that...and of course another one on the counter as required by code.....

The key here is all can be on the same circuit but only the ones on the countertop need be GFCI.......likewise the individual 15A dedicated circuit ( yes, it can be 20A as well if you wish ) does not have to be GFCI at all..

For those code lovers.....Art 210.52(B)(1) ex. 2



--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: Jay Moge
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



ekartal5 wrote:
I have never recommended a GFCI for a refrigerator. Is this new?

Erol Kartal
ProInspect


not to recommend it, but it's o.k. if it ends up that way. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)


Originally Posted By: ekartal5
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Thanks. icon_cool.gif


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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One thing that should be noted is that the 20a small appliance circuits in the kitchen also include the dining room, pantry breakfast room etc. Some of these may be wall mounted, not serving a counter top and those don’t have to be GFCI. You can have the fridge on one of those. You need 2 small appliance circuits but you can always have more.


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
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Quote:
Most of the time we will hit the dinning room recepts. and then catch the fridge and then a few on the counter..placing the GFCI recept. in the first one we hit on the counter protecting all after that...and of course another one on the counter as required by code.....



--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com