Christmas Eve Question of the Day

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Nick,


all kichen receptacles over counters or otherwise are required to be GFCI protcted unless the are a single dedicated outlet.

Regards

Gerry


Originally Posted By: rbrown1
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Since 1973, homes built according to the National Electrical Code have varying degrees of GFCI protection. GFCIs were first required in outdoor receptacle circuits In 1973, bathrooms in 1975, garage wall outlets in 1978, some kitchen receptacles since 1987, and all receptacle outlets in unfinished basements and crawl spaces since 1990.



Might this help?


Originally Posted By: jpope
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gromicko wrote:
I believe you are all incorrect and I'll explain why...

The NEC would have simply said ALL kitchen counters... the NEC didn't.


Nick it does say that. I gave you the NEC quote, I'll give it to you again.

Quote:
210.8 Ground Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

-(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in the locations specified in ( 1 ) through ( 8 ) shall have ground-fault circuit-interruption protection for personnel.

--(6) Kitchens -- where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.


Water is only mentioned in ( 7 ) - Wet bar sinks.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I just don’t see the purpose of requireing a GFCI away from water. I understand the mechanics of how GFCI protection works. Can anyone explain how a GFCI would be needed absent of water? Perhaps the NEC figured a cook could potentially take a liquid to a counter not normally near water?


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Quote:
A ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) is a circuit breaker designed to prevent serious shock to people under certain conditions. It can reduce the risk of shock when using electrical tools or appliances in damp or wet areas.

The GFCI works on the principle that the two wires supplying a single-phase electrical load must carry the same number of amperes (current) when the circuit is operating properly. If a ground-fault occurs either to the grounding wire, or through a person, some of the current will take an alternate route back to the system's grounding electrode. One of the wires will then carry less current than the other wire. When this occurs the GFCI will break the circuit, stopping the flow of electricity in a fraction of a second to reduce the electric shock hazard.


Apparently, the NEC feels there is a potential risk. . .


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Why would a GFCI be required in a dry area? What purpose could it serve such that the NEC would go so far as to require a GFCI in a dry area?


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I’ll reword it.


How could a GFCI protect someone where a merely grounded outlet could not, absent of water?


Originally Posted By: mboyett
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Nick, I realize that you are questioning the wisdom of the NEC requirement, not necessarily whether the requirement really exists which, I’m sure by now, that you agree does. The presence of water is certainly a risk factor but not the only one. There are many other places a person can be grounded especially in the kitchen, i.e. the appliance chassis, piping, plumbing, etc. The risk is therefore higher in the kitchen than other areas for a potential ground fault thru a person’s body so the need for GFCI protection is recommended.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I lose.


I'm fixing http://www.nachi.org/qa.htm accordingly.

Thank you all.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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gromicko wrote:
How could a GFCI protect someone where a merely grounded outlet could not, absent of water?


Grounding protects equipment and/or appliances. GFCI's protect people. . .


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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But how would a GFCI protect people in dry areas?


If you look at the diagram above the counter to the right of the stove top is clearly more than 6 feet from the sink yet still requires a GFCI.

Why?

The only thing I can think of is that the NEC figures a person working in the kitchen could have wet hands or could move liquids to a dry counter.

Or perhaps there is some scenerio whereby additional protection is offered by GFCI's in dry areas that regular grounded outlets don't already provide, I just can't think of what it could be.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Anyway, there are 2 questions in http://www.nachi.org/qa.htm that are now fixed.


Thank you.


Originally Posted By: mboyett
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Forget the water. Remember what a GFCI is doing, i.e. measuring the difference between the current being supplied by the hot leg and what is being returned on the neutral leg (see Jeff’s quote above). If there is an imbalance then the GFCI assumes that the stray current is going to ground, i.e. thru your body, and trips. Any water just exacerbates the problem by enhancing your body’s grounding but it’s not a requirement for it to be there.


Originally Posted By: away
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Nick,


Another thing to consider is that most counter top appliances don’t have the grounding prong on the cord.


I just did a quick survey of mine (all of which were purchased in the past 15 years).
Mini chopper, waffle iron, electric knife, vacuum sealer, ice cream maker, toaster, bread machine, hand blender, toaster oven, and crock pot all have only a two prong cord.

The only one with a 3 prong cord is my Kitchen Aid blender. Don't know why that one is the oddity.

So even if a grounded receptacle could somehow protect someone from shock or electrocution it would not work simply because there is no path for the ground from the appliance back to the receptacle. Although even then there would not be any protection.

Not only that but many appliances have a metal case. If there is a short in the appliance, the case has a good chance of becoming energized. Not much difference between a metal case and a bare copper wire at that point.


If there is still some doubt continue reading.

Disclaimer - Don't really try the experiment below it is written totally as a joke. That, and if you really do it, you can die.

Equipment Needed:
Bare piece of 12awg copper wire
Non-GFCI protected grounded receptacle
Telephone with 911 on speed dial (telephone should be readily available)
Tripod mounted video camera

You will also need an assistant.

Protocol:
1. Have assistant ready to press the speed dial button for 911.
2. Start recording with the video camera. This is for posterity and for the NACHI foundation to auction off. I am sure there are a few people at NAHI that would pay dearly for it.
3. Dry hands thoroughly.
4. Grasp 12awg copper wire firmly.
5. Put one end of 12awg copper wire into the short slot of the grounded non-GFCI protected receptacle.

Post Experiment Reporting:
After you quit convulsing, get out of the hospital, or once the funeral has taken place, whichever is applicable, report back as to what happened. Your assistant should pay close attention in the event you are not personally able to post your findings.

Hypothesis (yes I know this should be first):
Chances are that grounded receptacle is not going to do anything other than deliver 120 volts like it is designed to do. You just become a really big resistor (similar to a heating element or light bulb filament) and the full 15 or 20 amps of power will be delivered until (a) you can let go of the wire, (b) flop around so much that the wire becomes disengaged, or (c) the breaker trips.

As I wrote in my disclaimer, the above is purely written in jest. We need you around to keep coming up with ideas to get NACHI to the next level.


--
Andrew Way
Keystone Residential Inspection Services PLLC
817.441.9598
www.keystoneinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jsieg
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Nick, will this take care of the water part of your question?


A kitchen is designed to be for the preporation of food items. I know people use ti for other things.

Most kitchen appliances do not have any ground.

When cooking there is a lot of steem, oils in the air and food being prepaired on counters & tables. Most foors being prepaired require water, oil, milk or juice added and mixed into them before cooking.

How many people clean under their range hood? How greasy is it under their? Do you think that the sticky scum isn't everywhere in the kitchen?

Durring the hollidays the kitchen can be like a steem bath with condensation dripping down the windows.

The kitchen can be as dams as a bathroom after a hot shower.


Originally Posted By: cpetty
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They should be GFCI protected for safety.While cooking or tranfer of mixing bowls Etc…and adding water from any location of a counter top,or just some chicken that was just washed and re-handle and now you have wet hands and use a appliance that is two pronge and pluged into a 3 pronge grounded outlet with only two plugs puts you at risk for eletrical


diaster.




C.Petty

ALWAYS SAFETY FIRST!


Originally Posted By: jkormos
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have booze on it?


Originally Posted By: pbolliger
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gromicko wrote:
But how would a GFCI protect people in dry areas?

If you look at the diagram above the counter to the right of the stove top is clearly more than 6 feet from the sink yet still requires a GFCI.

Why?

The only thing I can think of is that the NEC figures a person working in the kitchen could have wet hands or could move liquids to a dry counter.

Or perhaps there is some scenerio whereby additional protection is offered by GFCI's in dry areas that regular grounded outlets don't already provide, I just can't think of what it could be.



WoW! You don't see it Nick? Or are you testing us??? ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

Example:

I am on a cherry picker changing a sign on a hot day with a power tool that has a very bad cord I am touching the cord with my sweaty leg or arm. The cherry picker cage is metal... What are the possiblilties?



I have to recommend this for you to read:( Download File: ElectricalSafety02-123.pdf )


Originally Posted By: dedwards
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A lot of older small kitchen appliances were NOT “double insulated” or more correctly "isolated from the metal casing. If you touch it with wet hands you could become the easiest and quickest route to ground. And as stated most of our kitchen appliances and for that matter most home appliances do not have a ground plug on them.


Originally Posted By: tgardner
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Nick,


A kitchen is not a dry area, like say, a living room. A kitchen floor can easily become wet. i.e. Plumbing leaks not only at the sink but at the refrigerator, as most have ice-makers and some water dispensers.

Most kitchens have hard surface floors that are occasionally wet-mopped.

OOPs, I dropped the whole container of milk, Mom!

The same applies to basements, garages, crawl spaces etc.

Regards, TG