Double tapped main

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Don’t come across this often, but thought I would post it for reference!


How would you write it up?





200A Main Panel (note main breaker!)





100A subpanel feeds tapped into 200A main breaker.





100A subpanel next to main service panel.



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: chorne
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Hi,


I would call it tapping before the main, a safety hazard.

Carla


Originally Posted By: jpope
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No doubt about it.



Jeff Pope


JPI Home Inspection Service


“At JPI, we’ll help you look better”


(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I call it an illegal installation according to the NEC and pretty dangerous too, since the service wires are rated for 200 amps and the secondary service panel wire is rated for 100 amps.


BTW...that would not be a sub panel, since both are connected at the lugs before the overcurrent device, that would make both panels the service panel. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: rwills
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Joe, you’re right, I believe the intention was subpanel though! icon_wink.gif



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpope
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jpope wrote:
There is no overcurrent protection provided for those wires traveling to the sub panel.


Correction:
There is no overcurrent protection provided for those wires traveling to the "secondary service panel."

How's that Joe ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Other than the two wires being under one terminal this could be allowed.


Make a splice in the first panel with proper connectors and you could have a legal installation.

Also you would have to know the total calculated load.

Quote:
230.90(A)Exception No. 3: Two to six circuit breakers or sets of fuses shall be permitted as the overcurrent device to provide the overload protection. The sum of the ratings of the circuit breakers or fuses shall be permitted to exceed the ampacity of the service conductors, provided the calculated load does not exceed the ampacity of the service conductors.


What we have here (it seems) is 200 amp service conductors feeding a 200 and a 100 amp breaker, strictly speaking you do have the ability to overload the service conductors by 100 amps, but none the less it is allowed if the calculated load in this case was less than 200 amps.

Not saying I like it but it thats the way it is. ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Quote Bob B:“Other than the two wires being under one terminal this could be allowed”.


Bob, the conductors being under one terminal was the reason I called it out obviously, but could you elaborate a little on the correct splicing method you mentioned?



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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You are allowed to splice service conductors. icon_smile.gif


You are allowed to make splices in panels. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

The only requirement would be to use a spicing method for the size and type of conductor.

One way would be to do a running tap on the 200 amp conductors.

That means do not cut them, just strip some insulation off them and use a split bolt connector (Burndy) to add on the 100 amp conductors.

Then you would need to insulate that with heavy rubber tape and then regular tape.

Another way would be insulation piercing bolt on connector (couple taps)

I am not saying it is a great idea or that it would look good, just allowed.

You are right to call out the double tap on this breaker it is bad enough done on branch circuit conductors but to do this with service conductors is done right scary.

By the way is there a service disconnect outside at the meter or not?


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: tallen
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Burndy? I thought they were called (Curneys) icon_confused.gif



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Quote Bob B:" By the way is there a service disconnect outside at the meter or not?" No, only at main panel!


-



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jsavino
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Bob


By your explanation, are the two panels now main panels?
Or main and sub?


--
John Savino
HomeWorks Inspection Services, LLC
St. James, NY
631.379.4241

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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rwills wrote:
No, only at main panel!


That does not change any of my answers but does make me wonder if someone did this live? ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

In my area I can call and have a meter pulled to kill the power but it takes a call from the electrical inspector to have the power put back on.

I doubt this was inspected leaving two possibility's.

Done live or meter pulled and replaced not by the POCO, in my area that can be a bad idea.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Bob, well the impression I got from the owner was that he did a lot of work on the property himself. As a matter of fact, he was replacing a front porch light fixture while I was there! He also was the original owner when the has was being built, so I guess he could’ve tapped the main breaker himself after final inspection and possibly while service was interupted for some reason.



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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jsavino wrote:
Bob

By your explanation, are the two panels now main panels?
Or main and sub?


Boy I hate smart questions. ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

No actually I hate patched together services like this.

They would both have to be service panels and now you have 2 of the 6 service disconnects allowed.

Also this means both panels need to have bonded neutrals, it looks like the 100 amp panel in the picture is set up with an isolated neutral.

I think is safe to say this should be checked out by a reputable electrician.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jsavino
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I agree.



John Savino


HomeWorks Inspection Services, LLC


St. James, NY


631.379.4241

Originally Posted By: rwills
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For the record, yes, the neutral in the sub, (I mean other) panel, was isolated.



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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You know the repair is quick and cheap.


Move a couple of the 15 amp 120 volt circuits over to the 100 amp panel so you can get space in the 200 amp panel for a 2 pole 100 amp breaker to feed the 100 amp panel.

I know this is beyond what you will tell the customer, the point is it would have cost almost nothing to do this right in the first place. ![icon_rolleyes.gif](upload://iqxt7ABYC2TEBomNkCmZARIrQr6.gif)


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Bob, yes I know, actually, the main panel had a blank spot in it on the right side if you look at the 1st picture, plus, there were blank spaces at the bottom, not visible in the picture. This proved to me that the owner or a “knowledgable buddy” probably did this!



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Bob


I strongly disagree. The conductors feeding the "sub" are unfused and are not allowed.

The disconnect 'must' be at the nearest point of entrance to the building.

Using the 1996 230.70(a).

Mike P.