Are these connectors allowed at breakers?
I think those are for stranded wire. The picture looks like stranded wire is present. Have a close up pic?
That does appear to be multistranded wire
Regards
Gerry
This is a question for the super sparky’s… Paul Abernathy where are you???
Here is something that is a clue to me that this may not fly … “Clamping force” under a screw on the OCPD is a factor on how amperage (current ) can move through a junction like this.
Wire nuts and weak connections and so on… So figure on the limitations when you try and “crimp” stranded wires with a tool and your hand pressure … A heck of a lot less then a screw under a screw driver. Or nut driver, set screw…etc…
PAUL where are Youuuuuuuuu?:D:D:D
Hey Guys,
I also believe it is stranded wire and while the arguement could be made against them for Solid Core wire it is used widely in the industry in commercial to use the approved spade connectors as used here.
For you code lovers…when making terminal connections and so on the code refers to Art. 110.14 and 110.14(A)
Now…what is important is the method of the crimp MUST ensure the connection is a GOOD connection…many AHJ’s will want to know the device used to make these connections.
Also the spade connection MUST be approved for this application and rated for the application…also lets say the stranded wire is copper yet the spade connector is Aluminum…does this not bring in Art 110.14
But…irrespective to that…we see it all the time and usually the connector will be rated for 120V/250V and listed AL/CU…but again their is a difference in using the same crimps you may buy in an auto parts store…
Must be listed and approved for the application…
Now…I do not want to go into alot of detail…shame BOB is not here because I am sure he sees this alot…and I would venture to say it is used alot in Chicago area since they have to use conduit…but in most areas it will be solid.
Crimp factor plays alot into the fact is the crimp method must ensure a GOOD solid connection…in an overview…it is MUCH better as opposed to having stranded conductors on the standard terminal…
Important…rating of the terminal being used, approved for the application being used and quality of the crimping device and method used.
Better late than never…
“For you code lovers”…
Ya I was thinking code…hmmmm Ya that’s the one…:D:D:D
I haven’t seen too much of stranded around these here parts but I must admit it is installed for my central air compressor…only… hmmm
Wonder if that is acceptable…PAUL waaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh;-)
Crimp connectors are designed for specific wire sizes. It’s interesting to note that all the wires are the same size, yet there is one connector with 2 wires, double lugged. If all the wires are the same size and all the connectors are the same size then it would appear that the dupple lugged connector is not appropriate.
Is that a stain or a burn mark on one of the crimp connectors? I would guess a burn or scorch mark due to a loose fitted crimp.
Just my 2 cents.
Joe
lol…Patrick I can’t determine if you are harrassing me or playing with me…lol…Oh well…either way…
I could probably argue the fact to allow or disallow them…I can point out factors which would disallow them…and most certainly can if they are attached to solid wire…anyway…
If this is a commercial inspection…and you are seeing it…Personally just let it go…it is FAR better solution versus the obvious.
Better eyes than me…I simply wanted to explain about the Spade Connectors…I did not actually look for anything else…lol
3M has terminals that are UL approved and rated for this application
http://www.labsafety.com/store/assets/product_images_XL/LBM87409.jpg
OK, thanks…
Oh I have a HVAC boiler question now… Just kidding…:D:D
I proding you with a no contact voltage detector…
I bought on Ebay a " Electrical Course for Apprentices and Journeymen" by Roland E. Palmquist with a revision by Joe Tedesco… book for a few bucks used!! … It reminds me of my days in basic circuit analysis… but in a much simpler form. I was much smarter back then…Now “I is dUm as a burnt out OCPD”…
lol…I hear ya…
BTW…so I dont have to make a post…most of the Spade terminals are tin coated copper to reduce the corrosive effects…not aluminum…thought I better say that…lol
Oh…I did need to add…on one commercial job the AHJ jumped on a local electrical contractor who was co-working the job with our company who was using crimp-ons…and was using his klines to make the crimp…the AHJ said it was not the correct tool to ensure a GOOD connection and made the guy use the actual crimper that came with the terminals…Go Figure…
as stated one issue in this image is the (2) wires in one spade terminal assembly…it is most certainly only a single wire rated terminal assembly and has two wires entering it which violates Art 110.14(A)…
but in short the terminal assembly SHALL BE listed and identified as such if it allows multiple conductors.
AS for the burnt mark…heck I dont know it is a burnt mark…I would think if this were the case the nylon insulator would have melted also…but who knows…pictures dont tell much.
Ok…anyone want a reason why solid wire is not good with these types of connections…getting away from code…more practicle…because the crimp is not able to grab onto the solid wire effectivly and since copper expands and contracts…it works loose…where as with stranded it tends to go IN and wrap around and grab the conductors better…thus holding better…
Plus if you CRIMP too hard with a solid you could NICK the wire and damage it…which in its own causes issues with Art 110.14(A)
I would say that this type of termination on an OCPD is uncommon. The crimps may be “listed” and may have been approved by someone who was not familiar with electrical installation practices.I would not recognize, nor approve this type of termination.
Joe,
List ME the reason for the non-approval of the application as it pertains to NEC.
Many electricians today in commercial applications with open screw set breakers and stranded wire use this type of installation because the code does not dis-allow it.
3M makes the spade and closed loop terminals that are rated for up to 30A/250V applications and have insulated binding jackets as long as they are crimped in the proper matter…has nothing to do with torque as that is taken care of at the screw set itself.
As an electrician I would be interested in knowing WHY you would not approve of this type of connection if the terminals are approved and meet the requirements of Art 110.14(A) and 110.14
Most home style breakers like SQ D and CH as designed in a way this is not possible, however open screw set type breakers are and in alot of commercial applications the open screw set style is still used and when dealing with stranded wire…we see it ALOT in commercial applications.
IN other words…would you turn it down because you have never seen it…or because you know it is a violation?..Important question to an AHJ…without a reason opinions are nothing in the field as I have been known to go over the head of the AHJ IF they can’t support a reason in understandable terms.
I am not saying you are not right…could be I am wrong…hey…it’s happened many times…lol…
Here’s the rest of the story:
The termination in the picture [enlarged below] has a place for the conductor to be positioned so that the turn clockwise will assure a proper connection.
I have seen some with some ridges, and others with a “bump”.
Using the crimps would be contrary to the UL Listing for that product at that time.
I would also ask the major IBEW, NJATC, and other training agencies if they teach their apprentices to do this type of work!
Also, the issues we discuss here should be handled courteously and professionally, and from here on we should remember that quoting the code is a “Mortal Sin Among Home Inspectors” and I personally will only quote a reference when specifically asked.
Please let me know if there are any further questions. I respect all opinions and ask the same of mine – “fellowship”
Incorrect…
1.) When a Home Inspector asks a question regarding if the terminals are allowed it is a duty to explain them.
2.) It is also important to explain a point versus simply not answering the question of why it is allowed or not allowed.
3.) Stay-Kons are manufactured by Thomas & Betts and the insulated jacket style stay-kon is approved for temps up to 105 degrees and 600V as listed on the product from UL approval and T & B labeling standards.
4.) While something is not common in one area does not mean it is not allowed under the local AHJ and/or NEC which governs.
5.) Trying to learn a lesson a year later is futile.
6.) Are you saying the manufacturing of Stay-kon terminals and 3M terminals are not used by electricians and apprentices nationwide?
7.) Based on the question at hand…if they are approved for the wire they are connected to, sized to the barrel correctly and crimped in the method listed by the manufacturer of the terminal it is allowed.
8.) Without SEEING the breaker in fact…and being it is open set screw designed it would have no reflection on the connection method unless stated otherwise.
Excellent JoeBu…I will remember this on the next code quote…
http://elec-cat.tnb.com/wcat_images/publish/speckon/spk_vinyl_insulated_locking_fork_terminals_1.gif
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Molded Funnel Entry Insulator
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Brazed Seam
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Internal Barrel Serrations
**Dimensional Images**Dimension Information In F.P.S (U.S)Display in metric standards (C.G.S)Catalog NoWire RangeBolt Size D2#Bolt Size D2 (In.)Dim. W (In.)Dim. F (In.)Dim. L (In.)Dim. E (In.)Dim. D (In.)Dim. d1 (In.)Dim. T (In.)KV14-6LF-M16-14 A.W.G. 1.5-2.5 sq. mm#60.1460.2360.2560.8860.4330.1770.0910.031For Mylar Tape replace box quantity with (T). Example: KV18-6F-T
Maximum Electrical Rating: 105°C 600 Volts Max.
Terminal Material: Copper
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Steve:
In my opinion based upon my comments below NO.
Call it out as a defect…
The use of a crimp is not designed for this purpose!