Closing Gable Vent

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by evandeven

Since I installed a ridge vent last year on my own home as well as foil in the attic, both manufacturers recommended closing off the gable vents.
Since I did, I was in the attic with the vents open and after I closed them.
There is definitely more air flow with the gable ends closed, at least from the soffits to the peak of the roof.

The problem is that most older homes do not have enough soffit vents.

Just cutting out the plywood dropped the interior temperature, immediately by 10 degrees. I of course, picked June to do this task!

I can tell you from first hand experience, here in South Florida, block off the gable vents.
Our house is now much more comfortable and, our electric bills dropped by $800.00 over last year.

Seems like more savings than would be normally expected. Hard to quote accurate savings without longer term study and comparing other electrical use/savings and weather data from year to year.

Many studies say if you have low insulation levels, improving attic insulation and airsealing will save more cooling energy than attic venting and radiant barriers.

[ROBERT V. YOUNG]

Thanks Mr.Gratton
I have used them for years.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

I agree with Brian, that air sealing and addittional insulation will circumvent the problems with inadequate venting as we sometimes see it.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by ryoung7

Its because other manufactures where coming out with differences in styles; being turbines were not a pleasing to look at firstly and foremost.
secondly other manufacturer's had more money to through at advertising campaigns.
I did some reading and studies ( thats when I had a brain in my head) for most of the time I would be out womanizing and drinking with all the other roofers.(no joke I was not to swift..I see them even today housed in a maxi vent ( turbine inside the box) and louvers hiding the turbines appearance.

Robert, Robert!!
I know you're sick but cut back on the meds!!

They were forced out by competition and should have been fighting harder for shelf space.
To me anyway.

They were not cut out by competition..... they didn't work that well and wer "Smoke and Mirrors. BTW, Venmar, the inventor, is now probably the largest HRV manufacturer in the world and has been owned by one of the world's largest ventilation companies, Broan, since 1998. Please get your facts straight!!

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by ryoung7

As any good ad champagne agents them ( AMERICAN STYLED FOR DEPICT AND WELL LOBBIED) IT WAS TAKEN WHEN THERE WAS NO AIR MOVEMENT..
I can not remember the studies and do remember that one being similar to a low profile vent the same size and dimension for moving air ( windless condition) Brian.
Its when air was moving (wind ) the difference's where then applied and turbines were in there own category. Superior to all. They did have growing pains , squeaks vibrations if installed wrong.,Not according to the manufactures specs..
I installed on engineers roofs and they where more than pleased having installed everything they could afford before and having ,noise, vibrations from mechanical fans , they were happy and looked further into there history but it was short and in its infancy.

Why would the engineers not have studied them in wind conditions!! Where do you get your information??

Here is from the Maximum Ventilation website:

The Maximum Ventilator is a static ventilator which is used to replace stale, moist air within the attic space with fresh outside air which is being drawn in by the ventilator through the soffit air intake located on the underside of the eaves of the building.

The ventilator functions with the combined effects of wind and pressure differentials, creating a chimney effect, thus drawing out the stale air from the attic space. Both the Turbine and the Maximum Ventilators function the same, except now the Maximum Ventilator does not have to turn to prevent rain or snow infiltrations due to it's unique, storm proof deflector built within.

That's right, the only reason the turbine is turning is to prevent rain and snow infiltrations into the attic. (Note this is their bold)

Refer to a chimney with a fireplace or wood stove. Do you see anything on top of the chimney that is turning to draw out the smoke? Of course not, this is being done the same way as the ventilator, wind and pressure. If you notice, as the velocity of the wind becomes stronger, the draw also becomes greater, thus forcing you to close the damper of the chimney flue so that you do not lose all your heat.

The velocity of the wind is what activates these ventilators, but when comparing the Maximum Ventilator with the turbine, there is another flaw with the turbine, the turning of the head of the turbine is also preventing the full effect of the wind, thus reducing the drawing power and capacity of ventilation area.

The Maximum Ventilator has no moving parts, and because of the design, it captures the full effect of the wind, producing a greater drawing power thus a larger capacity of area to ventilate. The Maximum Ventilator model #301 is capable of ventilating 1200 sq. ft. of attic area, compared to the 12 inch turbine ventilator, which is capable of only 400 sq. ft.


BTW, I think Venmar bought out Maximum a few years ago......If the turbine is so superior, why wouldn't they re-introduce it through this subsidiary?

[ROBERT V. YOUNG]

Brian
As explained to you before you like to attack.
Thats OK you read and believe all where I am skeptical and question.
As I posted ,it was years ago and I was deducing from memory. the late 1980's to early 1990's.
A little more reading between the lines will let you interpret anything.
See Brian its not all as has been written.
As I worked the field and had many come and say ( but the book says) I was busy solving and making solutions to that theoretical printed document.
I am just stating a point of view.
When every house is built the same with everything being equal then I will be more inclined to think your way ( not really HA HA) the one size fits all way and stop thinking outside the box.
Your statement about meds. WOW its a real no brainer.
I never take more than a aspirin unless I have to.
I prefer immunity boasters and enzymes to kill bacteria.
What do you take EGO -ity boosters?
You are quiet the pompous *** Brian.
I talked to asses like you in oil fields to large projects and always nulified your documented dribble useless under none controlled environments.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by ryoung7

Brian
As explained to you before you like to attack.
Thats OK you read and believe all where I am skeptical and question.
As I posted ,it was years ago and I was deducing from memory. the late 1980's to early 1990's.
A little more reading between the lines will let you interpret anything.
See Brian its not all as has been written.
As I worked the field and had many come and say ( but the book says) I was busy solving and making solutions to that theoretical printed document.
I am just stating a point of view.
When every house is built the same with everything being equal then I will be more inclined to think your way ( not really HA HA) the one size fits all way and stop thinking outside the box.
Your statement about meds. WOW its a real no brainer.
I never take more than a aspirin unless I have to.
I prefer immunity boasters and enzymes to kill bacteria.
What do you take EGO -ity boosters?
You are quiet the pompous *** Brian.
I talked to asses like you in oil fields to large projects and always nulified your documented dribble useless under none controlled environments.

I see that you still don't understand the "Smoke and Mirrors" aspect of the turbine that is moved only by the wind.

1) everyone knows that a desk fan, furnace fan, etc is driven by an electro-mechanical device, its motor. Electrical energy is converted to mechanical energy which drives the fan that sucks/pushes the air. To get that effect we need to put extra outside energy (electricity) into the system to drive the fan or the air won't move.

2) the turbine is driven by the outdoor winds. The turbine has no shaft to deliver this energy to a properly designed air-moving fan......so the turbine just turns in the wind drawing very little extra air out of the attic that would not be drawn out by simply having the chicken coop ventilator in place. The air passing over the top of the turbine draws air out of it just like air over the top of a chimney improves the "draw" of the
chimney. The turning turbine gets people thinking it looks like, works like and is as effective as a motor driven fan but it isn't.........That is the smoke and mirrors part of it..........it appears to work like a fan but it isn't!!

Give the Venmar folks at head office in Drummondville (Eastern Townships) a call and they will explain it to you. Here's a bit of history from their website with my red highlighting:

"We are the North American leader in air quality

We began our adventure in 1978, as a roof ventilation distributor for pre-fabricated and mobile homes. With a team of 20 employees, we quickly turned to manufacturing ventilation systems, which were sold through a network of hardware stores.

As the years progressed, thanks to many investments in research and development, we pushed the limits of ventilation and made innovation our motto. Today, we are proud to be part of the American multinational company Nortek, under the same heading as Broan and NuTone. Reassured in our products and continuous progress, we continually aim for higher standards, and remain a company who is determined to promote innovation for the benefit of consumers everywhere."

SO........ they are part of one of the world's most successful ventilation companies (they gobbled up Nutone 4-5 years ago) and.......... they have no $$$$ to research and re-introduce the best roof ventilator (according to yourself)???? Give the head a shake!!! The concept is a bust!!!

Go to their website: www.venmar.ca and see that they don't sell turbines (that they invented) but only Maximum Ventilation type roof vents. If you don't understand that, a poor HI you will be!!

[ROBERT V. YOUNG]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

I see that you still don't understand the "Smoke and Mirrors" aspect of the turbine that is moved only by the wind.

1) everyone knows that a desk fan, furnace fan, etc is driven by an electro-mechanical device, its motor. Electrical energy is converted to mechanical energy which drives the fan that sucks/pushes the air. To get that effect we need to put extra outside energy (electricity) into the system to drive the fan or the air won't move.

2) the turbine is driven by the outdoor winds. The turbine has no shaft to deliver this energy to a properly designed air-moving fan......so the turbine just turns in the wind drawing very little extra air out of the attic that would not be drawn out by simply having the chicken coop ventilator in place. The air passing over the top of the turbine draws air out of it just like air over the top of a chimney improves the "draw" of the
chimney. The turning turbine gets people thinking it looks like, works like and is as effective as a motor driven fan but it isn't.........That is the smoke and mirrors part of it..........it appears to work like a fan but it isn't!!

Give the Venmar folks at head office in Drummondville (Eastern Townships) a call and they will explain it to you. Here's a bit of history from their website with my red highlighting:

"We are the North American leader in air quality

We began our adventure in 1978, as a roof ventilation distributor for pre-fabricated and mobile homes. With a team of 20 employees, we quickly turned to manufacturing ventilation systems, which were sold through a network of hardware stores.

As the years progressed, thanks to many investments in research and development, we pushed the limits of ventilation and made innovation our motto. Today, we are proud to be part of the American multinational company Nortek, under the same heading as Broan and NuTone. Reassured in our products and continuous progress, we continually aim for higher standards, and remain a company who is determined to promote innovation for the benefit of consumers everywhere."

SO........ they are part of one of the world's most successful ventilation companies (they gobbled up Nutone 4-5 years ago) and.......... they have no $$$$ to research and re-introduce the best roof ventilator (according to yourself)???? Give the head a shake!!! The concept is a bust!!!

Go to their website: www.venmar.ca and see that they don't sell turbines (that they invented) but only Maximum Ventilation type roof vents. If you don't understand that, a poor HI you will be!!

Brian the point is I totally understand.
It came it went and my views were 20 plus years ago.
As explained I do understand about measuring and the importance of documentation.
Just not that all consuming to me as it is for you.
The definitives in my life are simpler than yours thats all.
I am a simple man in sight.
Everything is basically simple and you can go out of your way to explain them but at cat is still a cat although you want to call it
Abyssinian
The Abyssinian is a very active, playful, and inquisitive breed. This slender, short haired breed is distinguished by its ticked tabby coat pattern, which is a pattern more commonly seen in wild cats. Though ruddy is the color most associated with the breed, "Abys" are available in blue, fawn, and red (also known as sorrel), as well.
Its a cat
I just point out my view and not looking for a technical explanation but a piratical explanation( if you worked with them) I could relate in a discussion.
As explained I bumped heads with heads (thinkers) and I was given (horse sense) so the explanation is lost ( if to technically described )as I look mostly for piratical applications through example.
So Yes I understand the maximum vents work and how they work. I told you I use them.
Now we factor in all the variables,and in roofing most importantly THE ROOFERS.
1 THE SECOND SIMPLEST TRADE OUT THERE the first being demolition.
I had 40 question for my test.
2 working with them I noticed not many THINKERS,mostly well 50 percent plus on one job could not do the job at the jail house for they all had records. wow
I can go one and on.
So roofing is done by hard core simple people .
do they install everything right? I will not answer that. seen to many variables to give proper evaluation on deducing equations of the facts you post.
So when you quote those stats they are under set conditions.
Natural condition have many variables.
I posted also about the looks,of turbines killed them and the noise and I can go on and on.
Yes maximums are the thing . SO?
WHATS THE POINT YOU-ARE DRIVING HOME.
WANT TO BE RIGHT --AT WHAT , that under perfect conditions they perform better.
OK as soon as you show me every roof being perfect and being equal in conditions to weather, and every structure under then is also equal.
Then I will say you are right.
I do not want to go looking to disprove your theory about wind and air movement over not contributing to increased velocity of extracting air-out of the attic.
I well say this to-end it.
turbines came in and left after a nicer looking and well( not better) functioning product came along. CASE CLOSED WOW.

[ROBERT V. YOUNG]

Just for fun Brian I will go and try to find that turbine that was encased in a maximum vent housing. I SAW IT LAST MONTH AND LAUGHED, They finaly made them look better.
I will TRY, just try mind you to come up with a little proof that they for there timebeing the only thing out there new ,did a better job than chicken wire.
Christ Brian you want to argue about what I did not mean.
I exampled a pot with octopus venting being used to draw are out of homes.
There where no other products on the market THEY WERE NEW TO MONTREAL ---SO.
If I forget HA HA HA its not my fault I am a simple man with better things to do than clamber for facts TO SHOW BRIAN SOME PROOF THEY WORKED BETTER THAN CHICKEN WIRE. BRIAN REALLY.

This is what all that noise is about. HA HA HA HA HA. WOW
They were forced out by computation and should have been fighting harder for shelf space.
To me anyway.
Again sorry for the edit I do not want to open a new post.
SO LETS LOOK OUT SIDE THE BOX. Brian
Companys creat there own compatition.
Futer shop,Best Buy, Bureau en GROS, or staples as others know it..
But really all that for this.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

From the Ask-the Builder website, an email:

"I encourage you to do some research ( including some independant of roof vent manufacturers) but you will find these vents(the aluminum spinning vents) have generally less than one square foot of roof opening and do not induce air movement while spinning. Larger, less conspicuous static vents are more efficient at moving air.

I am not suggesting the manufacturers are misleading everyone but simply allowing us to carry on with the wrong idea of how they work.

If the vent is powered by a motor then it would be different.

As far as static operation, the most efficient is simply a hole in the roof. (But that would not be practicle). The vent is merely a cover to protect the hole while allowing the air to pass.. and this comes at a cost of some restriction and therefor lost of dynamic energy in the gas.

The only purpose of the rotation is mainly to help keep the open vent area clear of debris. Also there may be a benefit that these rotary vents tend to be higher.

But dont take my word for it ...check with a mechanical engineer specialised in gas dynamics.

Bottom line.. you can't expect those fins to both turn the vent and to draw air out imultaneously.. it defies the laws of physics. (I know it looks like it is doing that, but it cannot)

I have Bachelor's degree in Mechanical Engineer, and although not a practising engineer, I studed gas fluidynamics gas dynamica and this is really simple first year stuff. Basically look up how a turbine blade functions."

[ROBERT V. YOUNG]

You do not have to encourage me Brian I told you I would. You are being redundant.
I have told you that when it comes to documentation I will take my hat off to you. SO?
Now I have been on roofs almost as many times as women. Lots. As with women I like to explore sorry I am just being nasty. Ha Ha aaaaaaa. the days of youth!!!!
Anyway so I go from home to home roof top to roof to.
I notice the turbines actions and exhaust. I go to other vents and not as much exhaust.
I install pots for engineers they tell me there conclusions.
I draw deductions.
AND IT WAS YEARS AGO!!!!!!!
So it will not play a significant part in my life seeing NO ONE or should say a very small percentage install them Brian.
So we have come to conclusions about WHAT.
A piece of a system ( that did no harm ) an it was effective or ineffective.( still have yet to make Anallise( ME)
What am I going to waste my time for?
I have nothing to prove at the moment and my plate is full and I have little time to waste on insignificant issues that will not help me get further ahead in life. ( so to speck)
I will look Brian.
I am not angry and quite the opposite.
I enjoy banter and logical conclusion Brian and please if I seem to be insulting I AM SORRY it is not the intent.
Have you roofed Brian and tested this theory out piratically.
With out believing everything you read''so to speak''. It is just a question.
You are full of hot gas Brian that I do believe.
Maybe that is why you studied the subject so much.
I am sorry Brian I an terrible at bad whit.
I do know you are intelligent just by your sentences and the terminology you use for description and fact.

[Eric C. Van De Ven]

I have been wondering exactly what you two are arguing about!

As to the savings, as I stated, I also installed a radiant barrier, at least in the garage and kitchen portions of my attic. The comfort factor was immediate. When I came down from the roof after cutting the three inch wide space in the ridge, she asked what I did? It was that noticeable.

The turbine fans do help extract hot air from the attic. I a referring to here in South Florida. If you take the fan off and stand over the turbine base in August, you will know what I am talking about. The air in an attic can be as hot as 140 degrees or more. Ours was 138 degrees. Now, it is 105 or so.

The reason that the ridge vent is superior is because

1. It is a passive system and requires nothing besides the initial installation, and
2. It is installed at the highest point of the roof, where all the hot air is.

In northern climes, things may be very different.