flammable vapor ignition resistant

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by badair

FVIR are not fool proof, maybe designed safer but things break and stuff happens and the way we see things incorrectly installed we should never assume anything.
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforeso...d?OpenDocument

The way the "space" is being used, today during the inspection, may not be how it is used in the future.

Common sense notifications are sometimes not common enough, in our reports.

Direct from the GAMA doc I posted. Use at your own discretion and always follow the supplied instructions when installing fuel fired appliances.

If my water heater is FVIR, do I still need to worry about flammable vapors? YES. Flammable vapors are very dangerous and can be ignited from any number of sources. For this reason, you should never store or use any flammable liquids or combustible materials near a gas-fired appliance. Flammable liquids should only be stored in approved containers, and should kept far from gas appliances and away from children's reach. Follow all safety precautions on the product label when using flammable liquids.


I interpret flammable vapors as vehicle(s) parked in a garage with gas in the tank.
and still advise "safety enhancement upgrade to at least 18"elevation" ymmv

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by badair

Direct from the GAMA doc I posted. Use at your own discretion and always follow the supplied instructions when installing fuel fired appliances.

If my water heater is FVIR, do I still need to worry about flammable vapors? YES. Flammable vapors are very dangerous and can be ignited from any number of sources. For this reason, you should never store or use any flammable liquids or combustible materials near a gas-fired appliance. Flammable liquids should only be stored in approved containers, and should kept far from gas appliances and away from children's reach. Follow all safety precautions on the product label when using flammable liquids.


I interpret flammable vapors as vehicle(s) parked in a garage with gas in the tank.
and still advise "safety enhancement upgrade to at least 18"elevation" ymmv

Buzzkill

[Captain Beefheart]

Barry,

You can advise anyone anything you want. However, if an FVIR is installed on the floor of a garage, it doesn;t have to be raised.

So basically, you're advising your client to get into a fight they can't win.


Beef

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by badair

Direct from the GAMA doc I posted. Use at your own discretion and always follow the supplied instructions when installing fuel fired appliances.

If my water heater is FVIR, do I still need to worry about flammable vapors? YES. Flammable vapors are very dangerous and can be ignited from any number of sources. For this reason, you should never store or use any flammable liquids or combustible materials near a gas-fired appliance. Flammable liquids should only be stored in approved containers, and should kept far from gas appliances and away from children's reach. Follow all safety precautions on the product label when using flammable liquids.


I interpret flammable vapors as vehicle(s) parked in a garage with gas in the tank.
and still advise "safety enhancement upgrade to at least 18"elevation" ymmv

Well said and too the point!

But ........... I have this vision of some overweight, out of shape, grown "man" wearing a helmet, mask, cape and a way, way too small skid marked pair of tights with the initials
"CB-H" on his chest trying to spin it " to his satisfaction.

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by Captain Beefheart

Barry,

You can advise anyone anything you want. However, if an FVIR is installed on the floor of a garage, it doesn;t have to be raised.

So basically, you're advising your client to get into a fight they can't win.


Beef

Who said anything about fighting?

They gently and peacefully pay a plumber to elevate their equipment to help assure their family and property's safety. It's a Zen thing!

[Barry Adair]

BEK

did i redeem myself

[Robert Sole]

More information can be found here: http://www.home-inspect.com/itatips/04-04.asp

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by rsole

More information can be found here: http://www.home-inspect.com/itatips/04-04.asp

Thanks for the link!

Here is a "cut & paste" directly from this page.


Quote:
With compliance to FVIR standards, new complying water heaters will no longer have to be elevated in garages and similar locations unless required by the manufacturer or local code authorities.
End Quote.

The MFG's installation instructions will always "over rule code" and the local Code Enforcer will make his ruling according to the "Particular" situation at hand.

[Peter C. Russell]

Hmmmm, what about safety? doesn't that come first and foremost above minimum standards

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by prussell

Hmmmm, what about safety? doesn't that come first and foremost above minimum standards

Pete,
You are 100% correct. Code is "Minimum Standards."


Also ..... That is why when it comes to "Code" some officials will look at a "Particular" situation and see that if you follow the "letter of the law / code" it might not be the safest way to go .... so they recommend the safest course of action.

[Captain Beefheart]

Guess I gotta ‘Spoon feed” you guys

Barry goes and conducts an inspection where last week a new FVIR water heater has been installed directly on the garage floor. Barry writes in his report he recommended the water heater be elevated the required 18 inches above the floor to ‘explosion proof’ the heater. The buyer reads the report, has her attorney write a letter to the seller’ attorney requesting, among other things, the water heater be elevated.

The seller, quite angry because she just spent $800.00 to have the ‘best’ plumber around install the ‘best’ water heater she could afford, calls the plumber and reads him the riot act, saying she trying to sell her house and the buyers home inspector says she hired an incompetent plumber. The plumber then tells the seller where to go saying “I stand behind every job I do; the water heater is installed correctly’!

The seller, now really PO’d calls the local town inspector, yelling how can you approve something that’s wrong?

Now we all know the local town inspector is just a peachy guy who say’s “I have time now, I’ll be right over to check on your problem”.

Upon arrival, the local inspector reviews the newly installed water heater. He turns to the seller and asks, ‘What’s the problem?’
The seller hands Barry’s report to the local guys; he reads it and chuckles. You see, the local guy has been waiting for a moment like this. “Lady, these ‘home inspectors cause more problems than they find. Here is the manufactures installation guide, http://waterheating.rheem.com/content/resources/documents/use_care/ResGasGuardianSystem.pdf it simply states the installer is to follow all local code requirements (page 7). Our code, actually the national code, states these type water heaters are exempt from the 18” requirement. Humm, I wonder what else is written wrong in the report. Anyway, come by the office later and I’ll give you a letter stating this water heater meets all our current codes.”

Seller now hand delivers a copy of the local inspector’s letter along with a copy of the code to her attorney who in turn, writes a letter back to the buyer’s attorney that reads something like this:

Due to the fact you clients home inspector has been proven wrong by the local building department, we hereby give your inspector zero credibility and refuse to make any repairs pointed out by this inspector.

Credibility; it’s worth Millions

"Skid marks- it's those tracks on Frank's head from getting run over"

Beef

[Captain Beefheart]

http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultim...c;f=2;t=001469


BEEF!

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by Captain Beefheart

Guess I gotta ‘Spoon feed” you guys

Um, yummy

[Frank M. Carrio, CMI]

Originally Posted by Captain Beefheart

http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultim...c;f=2;t=001469


BEEF!

So... In the post above you provide a link to installing a Rheem water heater.
On the 1st page it says that it should not be installed in a mobile home.
So ... all of that information is;
A. Useless.
B. Provisional
C. Might or might not pertain to the subject at hand.

Then on this "post" you provide a link to the ICC message board where we see both "Certified old timers," Newly Certified ICC Inspectors, and ICC commitee members disagreeing on the placement of a FVIR water heater.


PS:
In order to make their intent clearer I added the red font and underlines.

Their disagreement went on and on.

It was all good for a laugh!

So the bottom line is that when it comes to a FVIR water heater you can always opt to "make it safer" by "recommending" that it be raised but you cannot "force" anyone to do so.
{When do we ever "force" anyone do do anything? }

The bottom line is .... nothing has changed from the start of this post.


John Kopp Frequent Contributor
Rate Member
Bradford White water heater Install Instructions

http://www.bradfordwhite.com/pdfs/def_manuals/NEW44219C-watermarked.pdf

"Special Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant System:

This water heater is equipped with a Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant
System. In the event of improper usage or storage of gasoline or other
flammable materials in the location where the water heater is installed, the
technology will resist ignition of the flammable vapors outside the confines of the
water heater.

The Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant System features:
• Advanced Flame Arrestor Design.
• Re-settable Thermal Switch to prevent burner/pilot operation with
restricted airflow.
• Piezo Igniter
• Sight Window to observe operation of pilot and burner.

FOR YOUR SAFETY: Activation of the Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant System occurs when flammable vapors are drawn into the water heater and are combusted. If flammable vapors are detected:
• Do not try to light any appliance.
• Do not touch any electrical switch; Do not use any phone in your building.
• Leave the premises and immediately call the fire department from a neighbor’s phone. Follow the fire department’s instructions.

Once the flammable vapor has been evacuated, contact your plumbing professional or the manufacturer for further instructions. Replacement of a Flammable Vapor Ignition Resistant System equipped water heater due to a flammable vapor shutdown is not covered under the terms of the limited
warranty."

You better set this puppy 18" off the garage floor or have a hell of a lot of insurance.

PS. If the the platform is constructed of wood framing and drywall the water heater needs to be placed in a Smitty Pan with a 3/4" plug due to potential water damage if a leak goes undetected. At least that is how our City sees it. They also require the T&P drain line to be routed gravity flow to the exterior of the building with an ell pointing down 6" min. 24" max from the ground. This means it cannot be routed to the garage floor.

John

jboren
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
posted 11-20-2005 08:21 AM11-20-2005 08:21 AM

One problem I see is that the IRC, IFGC, IPC and IMC are not consistent (I think only one code has the exemption for FVIR). North Central Texas Council of Governments says its ok to put FVIR water heaters on the floor of the garage. The plumbing/mechanical officials group also talked about allowing electric water heaters on the garage floor unless the manufacturer specifically states to raise it.

T&P to the floor in the garage, no place else (my opinion).

If you let AC into the attic, you are violating Energy Code requirements. Water heaters have been in attics for some time now in Dallas area. I've heard no reports of flame outs or flue gases in attic. Is this a problem only noticable with FVIR water heaters?

Biggest concern I heard was of the inlet openings on the outside of the water heater getting blocked with insulation and other debris, thereby blocking fresh air from getting into the chamber.

Uncle Bob {NOTE: Uncle Bob is a Certified Master Plumber, and a Certified Plumber inspector ... Frank }
Frequent Contributor

posted 11-20-2005 12:01 PM11-20-2005 12:01 PM
jboren,
The IRC is clear and easy to read and rules in the state of Texas. A municipality may amend it providing it does not deminish requirements or intent of the code (make it more stringent; not less).

The North Central Texas Council of Governments is a polictical organization; the plumbing/mechanical officials group is a trade organization; the opinion of either is irrelivent.

Yes, I understand from the plumbers here that it is a FVR problem only.

jboren
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:

Uncle Bob and jbh, yes the IRC is the code in Texas, but which section are you going to accept?

The point I tried to make was that there is an exception in G2408.2 that allows FVR water heaters to be placed on a garage floor

but the same exception is not included in M1307.3 and P2801.6.

That leads to confusion. I might accept the exception in G2408.2, while my counterpart in the next city may say that the most strict code requirement applies and since the exception is not included in M1307.3 and P2801.6,

my counterpart may require the FVR water heater to be raised.
{Now remember this is one code official speaking to another. Frank }

I think FVIR sounds better than FVR, like GFCI sounds better than GFI? (poor attempt at humor)
dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
posted 11-21-2005 10:46 AM11-21-2005 10:46 AM
Jboren --

The provisions of the mechancial chapters do not apply at all to gas water heaters. See M1301.1.
that why there is no exception in the mechnical chapters!
-- FVIR water heaters are gas only. The mechanical and gas chapters do not overlap -- they are mutually exclusive.

Uncle Bob
Frequent Contributor
posted 11-21-2005 01:23 PM11-21-2005 01:23 PM

2000 and 2003 IRC:
P2801.6 Water heaters installed in garages. Whater heaters having an ignition source shall be elevated such that the source of ignition is not less than 18 inches above the garage floor.
(no exceptions are listed)
I hope this helps.

Michael R. Moore
Frequent Contributor
Member Rated:

posted 11-21-2005 06:51 PM11-21-2005 06:51 PM

I agree with "InspectorGift". Guys (and gals), back to basics: remember what FVIR stands for= Flammable Vapor Ignition RESISTANT! (i.e, not PROOF). Sounds to me that there still is the possibility of ignition, hence they are still a possible ignition source.
Raise the water heater!


[/font]dsjtecserv
Frequent Contributor


Member Rated:
posteddocument.write(timestamp(new Date(2005,11,2,11,10,0), dfrm, tfrm, 0, 0, 0, 0)); 12-02-2005 11:10 AM12-02-2005 11:10 AM Bret:

Your remarks are inappropriate. As a junior contributor, I suppose we should cut you some slack, but you have presumably been an adult for some time, and in that respect should know better. I doubt that you would adopt such a snide and disrepectful attitude toward me were we together.

I, and the rest of the ICC committee members who wrestled with this issue three years ago, have been working to develeop code provisions that provide for the greatest practical degree of safety for gas installation for, I suspect, longer than you have been around. You are free to disagree with the decision we reached, but at least in this forum the attitude you displayed isn't welcome.

Further, rather than backbiting those who put in the work on this you might consider participating in the process yourself. A hint though: personal attacks questioning the morality or commitment to safety of others aren't welcome at the code hearings either.

And, with regard to your last comment, we determined that elevation of FVIR is LESS safe than elevating it. I hope you take your responsibility as an inspector seriously enough to enforce the code as written, recognizing that maybe, just maybe, it was written by conscientious people using the best information available. By choosing to apply your prejudices to a installation rather than the code, you may well be decreasing its safety.

Dave

[Captain Beefheart]

Taken out of the ICC thread: (Underlining is mine)

“While I can understand your confusion from reading the outdated (and, frankly, incorrect) commentary, the fact remains that the code itself is quite clear about how the provisions for gas water heaters are to be applied. And it is the CODE that is to be enforced. While the commentary can sometimes aid in enforcement and shed light on the intent of the code, this is not one of those cases. I have spoken with ICC this morning, and have been told that the section you quoted is incorrect and will be changed to properly reflect what the code says.

Please see section P2101.2, which refers to Chapter 24 for the installation of gas water heaters. Chapter 24 is the chapter that deals specifically with the type of appliance in question, and contains a specific provision regarding elevation, and an explicit exception for gas-burning, FVIR water heaters. Where the code contains both general provisions and provisions that apply to a specific appliance or situation, the more specific provision ALWAYS applies. This is entirely consistent with the clear intent that the installation of gas water heaters be governed by Chapter 24, as is stated repeatedly throughout the code.

This is not an issue of the more restrictive provision of the code vs. manufacturers instructions. It is two provisions within the code that are at issue. One of those is explicitly intended to be applied to gas-burning FVIR water heaters. It doesn't matter whether it is more or less restrictive: it applies, period.

Chapter 28 does, of course apply to the installation of gas water heaters with respect to their plumbing (water) connections and everything else that is not covered or overruled in Chapter 24. Paragraph 2801.6 may still need to be there for non-gas-fired water heaters, but it has no application to gas water heaters.

The proper application of the code to this issue has been explained in previous posts above, and again in this post. Further, we have explained why elevation may create or worsen other hazards, and that elevation has never been a desirable means of dealing with the risk of flammable vapor ignition. I think that the matter should be clear enough by now, and that there is no point in belaboring it further.”

Dave

“So... In the post above you provide a link to installing a Rheem water heater.
On the 1st page it says that it should not be installed in a mobile home.
So ... all of that information is;
A. Useless.
B. Provisional
C. Might or might not pertain to the subject at hand.”

Are you feeling OK; I’m starting to get concerned about your health!

Look people, I know you argue all the time your not code inspectors, but, the appliance must be installed according to code. Read the installation manual (that clearly states the WH shall not be used in a mobile home) (happy Frank?). Page 7 says “if local codes require the use of a stand kit to raise the water heater 18 inches…” Local code (including DFW, is that where you’re from Barry?) say’s it’s OK on the garage floor.

Remember, hopefully no one (including Frank) is ever sitting in a witness chair being questioned on ANY particular problem; if so you need specific back-up; and what better back-up then the ICC codes?

OK, I’m done with this thread.

Beef