Has anyone ever seen this???

[Marcel R. Cyr]

You have got to be kidding that someone would use this stuff in an attic.
Sorry guys, late in reading this post.

Here is some information for a wake up call.

Styrofoam Cups

Drink in this article about Styrofoam cups & containers, styrene migration, and your health
STYROFOAM CUPS — CLOUDS IN YOUR COFFEE?
Styrofoam Food Containers, Styrene Migration, and Your Health
It was big news years ago when McDonalds moved its sandwiches out of their trademark Styrofoam clamshells and into paper wrappers. The environment was proclaimed the winner and we all went back to saying, "Yes, I'll have fries with that."
But Styrofoam—or more properly, polystyrene—did not go away. Today it is still going strong in both food and non-food applications. The table below provides examples.
Food Applications of PolystyreneNon-Food Applications of Polystyrene

• coffee cups
• soup bowls and salad boxes
• foam egg cartons; produce & meat trays
• disposable utensils

• packing "peanuts"
• foam inserts that cushion new appliances and electronics
• television and computer cabinets
• compact disc "jewel boxes" and audiocassette cases

In a future article, we will debate the advantages and disadvantages of polystyrene's overall use—i.e. the story of "Styrofoam and the Environment"—but today we will take a look at the implications of using polystyrene in food and beverage applications. Most importantly, we will talk about how styrene—the single-molecule form of polystyrene—migrates into your food and beverages from polystyrene food containers.
Just in case you are tempted to think this problem does not apply to you—perhaps because styrene exposure has not caused you to grow a third ear or something—think again. A US EPA study of fat biopsies from human subjects found styrene residues in 100% of the samples tested.
STYRENE MIGRATION FROM STYROFOAM CUPS & CONTAINERS

The migration of styrene from a polystyrene cup containing cold or hot beverages has been observed to be as high as 0.025% for a single use. That may seem like a rather low number, until you work it this way: If you drink water, tea, or coffee from polystyrene cups four times a day for three years, you may have consumed about one Styrofoam cup-worth of styrene along with your beverages. Mmm.... chemically...
Styrene migration has been shown to be partially dependent on the fat content of the food in the polystyrene container—the higher the fat content, the higher the migration into the food. Entrees, soups, or beverages that are higher in fat (like a bowl of three-cheese chili or a cup of Triple-Cream Frappa-Mocha Java Delight) will suck more of the styrene out of the polystyrene container. Some compounds found in beverages, like alcohol or the acids in "tea with lemon," can also raise the styrene migration rate. When it comes to more solid food, the meat or cheese you buy from the market on a clear-plastic-wrapped polystyrene tray is readily picking up styrene from the foam container. Studies have also found that styrene tends to migrate more quickly when foods or drinks are hot.
HEALTH EFFECTS OF STYRENE

Once styrene gets into your food or drink—and then into you—what does it do? Studies suggest that styrene mimics estrogen in the body and can therefore disrupt normal hormone functions, possibly contributing to thyroid problems, menstrual irregularities, and other hormone-related problems, as well as breast cancer and prostate cancer. The estrogenicity of styrene is thought to be comparable to that of Bisphenol A, another potent estrogen mimic from the world of plastics.
THE OFFICIAL WORD ON STYRENE AND CANCERStyrene is considered a possible human carcinogen by the World Health Organization's International Agency for Research on Cancer.
Long-term exposure to small quantities of styrene is also suspected of causing:

• <LI class=compactbigger>low platelet counts or hemoglobin values; <LI class=compactbigger>chromosomal and lymphatic abnormalities;
• neurotoxic effects due to accumulation of styrene in the tissues of the brain, spinal cord, and peripheral nerves, resulting in fatigue, nervousness, difficulty sleeping, and other acute or chronic health problems associated with the nervous system.

Because many of these effects can be more pronounced on developing bodies, extra caution is advisable for women who are pregnant (or considering becoming so) and for prepubescent children.
RECOMMENDATIONS ON STYROFOAM CUPS AND POLYSTYRENE

There have not yet been enough studies to know whether the relatively small amounts of styrene from polystyrene (Styrofoam) cups and food containers are enough to cause health effects. But we know from studies of other chemicals that long-term, constant exposure to small amounts of foreign substances—especially those that mimic hormones—causes problems. So, it makes sense to avoid polystyrene as much as possible.
A CERAMIC MUGGINGAlways using a ceramic mug instead of a Styrofoam cup is highly advisable, and mugs with lead-free components are preferable. If you use a "regular" mug, watch for breaks in the inner ceramic surface that might expose your beverage to the lead. If chips or scratches show up, pitch the mug.
Our recommendations are:

• <LI class=compactbigger>Use ceramic plates, bowls, and mugs/cups whenever possible. If you can't do that, choose paper over polystyrene.
  
  <LI class=compactbigger>Item 1 applies especially if your food or beverage ...
  • <LI class=noshrink>will be hot (or get heated up in the container), <LI class=noshrink>contains alcohol or acidic substances, or
  • has medium or high fat content.
  <LI class=compactbigger>Supermarket items that come sitting on or in a polystyrene food container should be removed and stored in something else until you're ready to cook or eat the items. Glass, ceramic, or porcelain containers, bowls or plates are preferable for food storage (so you don't get chemicals from plastic storage containers). If you can choose food products that don't come in polystyrene containers in the first place, so much the better. (And remember that most restaurant "doggie bags" are really polystyrene food containers.)
  
• Never, never, NEVER microwave or heat food in polystyrene containers.

And now for the flame spread and smoke developed:

What are the flame spread/smoke developed ratings for US STYROFOAM extruded polystyrene products based on ASTM E84 test? Question What are the flame spread/smoke developed ratings for US STYROFOAM extruded polystyrene products based on ASTM E84 test? Answer The flame spread/smoke developed ratings for Dow extruded polystyrene insulation products are:

10/160* Max 3.5” thickness, 1.9 pcf density max: Cavitymate Ultra, Recovermate CR, Dow Protection Board III
15/165* Max 4” thickness and greater than 2.4 pcf density but less than 4 pcf: Highload 40, Highload 60 and Highload 100
5/165* Max 4” and 2.4 pcf density maximum: all other STYROFOAM* products
You can also check UL certificate # D-369 for this information.

* Flame spread and smoke developed were recorded while the material remained in the original test position. Ignition of molten residue on the furnace floor resulted in flame travel and smoke generation equivalent to a calculated flame spread classification of 105 and a smoke developed classification of over 500.

Marcel

[Brian C. Hoagland]

O.K. so what you are saying is this stuff is no good, right Marcel? That's what I thought too!!

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

And the gasket material that most builders use and the foam that many put on the top of the entrance door is also bad ?
How about manufactured attic entrances .
http://www.storesonline.com/site/141...sulation%20Kit
And how about the spray insulation many are now using to seal gaps and to do complete attics.
How about the new foam bed Mattress's

I feel the attic is not part of the home we live in
I would expect most people would be long out of the home before these gasses come down or the are already dead from smoke inhalation ....
I would love to see a web site with some facts.
...... Cookie

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Originally Posted by rcooke

Gee I would love more information on this where did you find out it is improper and illegal.
I have for years recommening to people that they gasket and put 6 inches of foam on their attic entrance door .

...... Cookie

The gasket is code required, the foam needs to be code approved. Why am I even bothering? Get a copy of the code manuals and stop pulling my chain. Oh, by the way you may have to read them repeatedly, just putting them in the bookshelf never worked for me.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by bhoagland

The gasket is code required, the foam needs to be code approved. Why am I even bothering? Get a copy of the code manuals and stop pulling my chain. Oh, by the way you may have to read them repeatedly, just putting them in the bookshelf never worked for me.

I am not pulling your Chain and I do not do code inspections but I am concerned about Foam giving of gas .
Yes I understand ( I think it is Cyanide ) and it must be covered in the living part of the residence here in Canada .
How about manufactured attic entrance enclosures .
Many are made of foam board. Many beds and soafas are made with foam.
..Cookie

[Brian C. Hoagland]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I am not pulling your Chain and I do not do code inspections but I am concerned about Foam giving of gas .
Yes I understand ( I think it is Cyanide ) and it must be covered in the living part of the residence here in Canada .
How about manufactured attic entrance enclosures .
Many are made of foam board. Many beds and soafas are made with foam.
..Cookie

Furniture articles are a valid concern but not one we have to deal with as they typically do not convey in the transaction and are not covered in any inspections I am aware of being commonly conducted. Small areas of foam ( like gasketing materials or the cover on a 24"by 36" attic opening) are no big deal, but look at the pictures in the original post and then please put my words back into context. This is an improper installation because of the hazards it poses. I'll meet you halfway on the illegal part but who is to say a liscensed (stupid) contractor did not charge for it- that would be illegal.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

All good point of views from everyone, and I would like to add that the economics of this World, convenience of the styrene products in the Life Styles of most North American People have dissolved the reality of it's deadly poison and flammability attributes that it brings to firefighters all over this Country and occupants of the simple residential dwellers throughout.

I is and has been enforced in Building design, by the NFPA to provide building Products that will be either contained by a fire resistive material and/or provide a polystyrene product that will meet the 25/50 burn criteria as tested by ASTM. ,25 indicates the flame spread of the product and 50 would be the smoke developed that it creates.

So one could say, yes foam products are use in all aspects of the Building Market.

Well, how many are being used like they should and how many are being installed properly to meet the NFPA standards that are there to protect all of us in a home that we cherish and raise our children?

We all use these products that we find convenient, but I don't think it were meant to be improvised and used as an unprotected function.

Styrene products designed for convenience becomes more of a disposal factor and the fact it is not a green product.
Styrene products improvised as a building substitute is a deadly decision at hand or a bad poker hand.
Do you wish to position yourself and your family to the mercy of LUCK, that nothing will happen?

Marcel




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[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by bhoagland

Furniture articles are a valid concern but not one we have to deal with as they typically do not convey in the transaction and are not covered in any inspections I am aware of being commonly conducted. Small areas of foam ( like gasketing materials or the cover on a 24"by 36" attic opening) are no big deal, but look at the pictures in the original post and then please put my words back into context. This is an improper installation because of the hazards it poses. I'll meet you halfway on the illegal part but who is to say a liscensed (stupid) contractor did not charge for it- that would be illegal.

I expect it was the home owner who did it and not a contractor.
What I would like to find out is it illegal or is this just a surmise on our part. They are now spraying foam and in some cases sealing attics air tight.
Where is the difference with spray foam and loose foam.
Remember many out there are like me and have no idea if it is proper or not so lots gain much information from these discusions.
...... Cookie

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I expect it was the home owner who did it and not a contractor.
What I would like to find out is it illegal or is this just a surmise on our part. They are now spraying foam and in some cases sealing attics air tight.
Where is the difference with spray foam and loose foam.
Remember many out there are like me and have no idea if it is proper or not so lots gain much information from these discusions.
...... Cookie

Hi. Roy;

One concern with foam insulation is its burn characteristics. Like wood, foam will burn when exposed to a constant ignition source. All half-pound foams should have a Class One Certifications since they are treated with a fire retardant package. The Demilec Foam we spray frequently, Sealection™ 500, has a flame spread index of 21 and smoke development of 216, which satisfies the 2003 International Residential Code (section R316). These are the key numbers building officials want to see.
To place the safety of foam insulation in an attic in context, there are many products in a home that contain foam, including carpet pads, sofa's, and mattresses, just to name a few. The vast majority of fires start inside the house and not in attics. The foam we are installing is also separated from livable areas, people and ignition sources by sheet rock.
The codes intention is designed to keep people and ignition sources away from the foam. To keep people away from the foam, the attic space must not have a walk in door and storage areas. In an attic there must not be any open source flame appliances such as an eighty-percent efficient furnace. We tell our customers, who are using gas heating, to only use sealed combustion 90% efficient or better furnaces.

The IRC will permit a product that will meet the ASTM E 84 with a 200/450 flame spread and smoke developed so I guess your styrene cups would be alright then, right? ha. ha.

I think this would be where common sense would take over.

Marcel

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Hi. Roy;

One concern with foam insulation is its burn characteristics.

I think this would be where common sense would take over.

Marcel

I agree and when I see foam Board on Basement walls I write hard and tell them it must be covered or removed .
I expect most do nothing but My bottom is covered written up in to CRA.
I look forward to the Day insurance companies will allow people to put sprinklers in their homes .
.... Cookie
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[dcook1]

New Ontario code 2006 3.1.5.12. (2) It is permitted provide it is separated from adjacent living space by (a) 12.7mm gypsum board. (b) plaster,,, and it goes on.
Reference 9.10.17.10 also states if used in ceilings and walls it must be protected from adjacent living spaces.

Bottom line... it can be there, it just needs the correct protection from adjacent living spaces.
As has been stated, you see it applied as a foam spray on basement or attics. It simply needs the separation.

I must admit though, I think the egg crates look the best!

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by dcook1

New Ontario code 2006 3.1.5.12. (2) It is permitted provide it is separated from adjacent living space by (a) 12.7mm gypsum board. (b) plaster,,, and it goes on.
Reference 9.10.17.10 also states if used in ceilings and walls it must be protected from adjacent living spaces.

Bottom line... it can be there, it just needs the correct protection from adjacent living spaces.
As has been stated, you see it applied as a foam spray on basement or attics. It simply needs the separation.

Was my thinking, David. And covered with the fire retardent cellulose should improve both the "fire" situation and heating bill. How would you find the styrene under the cellulose if an owner like myself did this?

Have a local plant that manufactures types 1-4 expanded polystyrene board, ICF foundation block, air vent shutes, etc. They shred waste product and at times have simply sold the expanded beads also as a pouring insulation for attics and walls. If there was a problem, they'd be the first to know, be sued or shut down!!! Been doing it for 25-30 years at least.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

How about a home we did last week it had wood wool is (Excelsior a wood product made of aspen fibers,) in walls for insulation .
Now I know of no insulation that could burn hotter or faster and spread the fire like wow .
This was a first for me .
It also had saw dust in one section of the home and saw dust does not burn well at all and another section had wood chips and they do burn well,
.... Cookie

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

The concern about styrene is in food trays, foam cups and other iotems of styrene used in food storage and delivery. If styrene is so bad why is it used for Dow SM, Protec, Celfort, Trufoam, Thermalite and may other foam boards???

The use in the application is CRITICAL! Throwing something in YOUR attic (Hint: Where you, your wife and your KIDS live) is very different.

Are you a licensed and insured and educated professional engineer, chemist or architect? Do you know all the real and potential ramifications of your decision FOR THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION!

If not, PLEASE defer to experts, who do know (or will find out) and will take the liability for YOUR safety.

Please excuse my vehamence, but I have seen too many kids get hurt from their parents mistakes.

Hope this helps;

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by wdecker

The use in the application is CRITICAL! Throwing something in YOUR attic (Hint: Where you, your wife and your KIDS live) is very different.

Are you a licensed and insured and educated professional engineer, chemist or architect? Do you know all the real and potential ramifications of your decision FOR THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION!

If not, PLEASE defer to experts, who do know (or will find out) and will take the liability for YOUR safety.

Please excuse my vehamence, but I have seen too many kids get hurt from their parents mistakes.

Hope this helps;

Will:

If styrene is so bad why is it used for Dow SM, Protec, Celfort, Trufoam, Thermalite and may other foam boards??? No one has answered this question yet? Why not??

Do you think our local manufacturer of expanded polystyrene beadboard products would risk their company future by selling shredded chips and expanded beads expressly for the purpose of dumping it in your attic to insulate without doing some due diligence. The company is run and owned by an engineer so he should understand the potential ramifications.

When something is "different" some people cannot stand it being accepted although it's not a proven problem. Do we have any recent data on this product in fires?? Everyone wants it covered when they see sheets of it exposed...but where's the fire/death data about this product.

I used to do training in the wood heat industry here with a Deputy Fire Marshall. had a chance to ask him about it one day... his response: I tell them to cover it because its in the rules but there's a lot more I like to see covered or banned from homes like foam underlay and plastic carpet, plastic kids toys, foam cushions/pillows!!