Has anyone ever seen this???

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Location of Most Mobile Home Fires

(in order of frequency)

1

Kitchen

2

Living room

3

Bedroom

.

4

Heating room

5

Underneath
mobile home

(The order of frequency for fatal fires: living room, kitchen,

exit areas, bedroom, heating room.)

Main Causes of Mobile Home Fires

(in order of frequency)

1

Heating system

2

Electrical
distribution

3

Cooking

4

Arson

5

Appliances/AC



From another site:

The U.S. has one of the highest fire death rates in the industrialized world.
Each year, fire kills more Americans than all natural disasters combined.
Fire is the third leading cause of accidental death in the home.
Fires most often start in the kitchen. Cooking is the leading cause of home fires in the U.S.
The second most common place where fires start in the home is in the bedroom.
Careless smoking is the leading cause of fire deaths.
Heating is the second leading cause of residential fires and the second leading cause of fire deaths

[phinsperger]

Originally Posted by dcook1

New Ontario code 2006 3.1.5.12. (2) It is permitted provide it is separated from adjacent living space by (a) 12.7mm gypsum board. (b) plaster,,, and it goes on.
Reference 9.10.17.10 also states if used in ceilings and walls it must be protected from adjacent living spaces.

Bottom line... it can be there, it just needs the correct protection from adjacent living spaces.
As has been stated, you see it applied as a foam spray on basement or attics. It simply needs the separation.

Exactly. The ceiling of the top floor provides the required protection. I would much rather see this stuff in the attic than the basement. Why? because the basement is 1)typically not vented, 2) below the living areas, and 3) has a stairwell and other passages for the hot gases to rise.

One could argue that Mario's expanded polystyrene containers were not even part of the building materials but merely the "uninuslated" attic was being used for storage of packaging material for some home based business.

Spray foam is a different chemical altogether but it doesn't really mater as the code requires the protection from all foamed plastics

I would not object to leaving the packaging there and insulating over top as Brian M. suggested buuuut.... I would remove them simply because of the loss of insulated space. I suppose you could turn the upside down and then blow in cell.

Because of the "box-like" structure of the packaging, a single unit is providing about an R2.5 to 3. With the gaps between the units the effective R value is next to nill. They are easilly removeable and doing little to keep the heat in.

Bottomline: Fire issues do not apply in this application due to protection from ceiling. Remove them and insulate with typical insulation to increase thermal performance of building evelope.

[rwand1]

You cannot guarantee the fire will not enter the attic through penetrations, gaps, through soffit overhangs, flame spread or through a buried electrical wire that surely is buried beneath this styrene. Mind you if the roof is on fire the house is already fully engulfed.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

I did one 8 weeks ago that had Many many hard blocks of insulation that I had not seen in 40 years .
It looked (Asbestous ?) that they used on Boilers and over Big glass kilns ( Dominion Glass Bottleing plant ).
The owner of the home comented that he had put it there as insulation it was left over from work 40 years ago .
I wrote it up needing further evaluation and possible needing removal if it was asbestious .
It was removed cost $5,000;00 .
Three guys no masks no home protection Garbage bags hauled it through the home 4 hours and left lots of dust.
This too me was improper and not my place to say any thing .
Both agents and home owner sat there while it was done .

.......... Cookie

[Larry D. Kage]

Originally Posted by rcooke

I did one 8 weeks ago that had Many many hard blocks of insulation that I had not seen in 40 years .
It looked (Asbestous ?) that they used on Boilers and over Big glass kilns ( Dominion Glass Bottleing plant ).
The owner of the home comented that he had put it there as insulation it was left over from work 40 years ago .
I wrote it up needing further evaluation and possible needing removal if it was asbestious .
It was removed cost $5,000;00 .
Three guys no masks no home protection Garbage bags hauled it through the home 4 hours and left lots of dust.
This too me was improper and not my place to say any thing .
Both agents and home owner sat there while it was done .

.......... Cookie

They may have never tested it, just charged the high $ and left.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by phinsperger

Exactly. The ceiling of the top floor provides the required protection. I would much rather see this stuff in the attic than the basement. Why? because the basement is 1)typically not vented, 2) below the living areas, and 3) has a stairwell and other passages for the hot gases to rise.

Bottomline: Fire issues do not apply in this application due to protection from ceiling. Remove them and insulate with typical insulation to increase thermal performance of building evelope.

Paul:

I would argue that payng an insulation company to remove them and have to pay dumping fees would negate some of the payback for the new insualtion job. These are bulky and would need quite a few bags for removal/disposal.
We insulate to save $$$$; don't let the Law of Diminishing Returns cut into the savings.

And this foam is an oil product that should be re-cycled (which they are in the attic now).

By using a thick layer of cellulose over them after airsealing, convective currents will be essentially stopped. Remember, Oak Ridge National Laboratory said remediation for convective losses from "fluffed long fiber glass insulation" was to blow a few inches of cellulose over the glass.

[klott]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Ken

It is one thing to be resourcefull and another to potentially put your family at risk!!

I know that, I was just giving an opinion of why they did it. Another thing about those packing peanuts I discovered is Termites love them.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by klott

I know that, I was just giving an opinion of why they did it. Another thing about those packing peanuts I discovered is Termites love them.

Another insulation oddity I've seen is the window cut-outs from foam insulated steel doors glued to the inside of a concrete basement wall. TYhe gent must have worked at the door plant. This was before the days of using the cut-outs as part of the pre-made attic hatch assembly.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Thanks for the feedback guys!!

I have decided to take Paul's advice. Remove and replace with a more conventional insulating material. Plain and simple and to the point. Personally I would not have this ***** in my attic.

Thanks again!!!

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Thanks for the feedback guys!!

I have decided to take Paul's advice. Remove and replace with a more conventional insulating material. Plain and simple and to the point. Personally I would not have this ***** in my attic.

Thanks again!!!

Mario:

Would you use Styrofoam as recommended by Building Science Corporation as part of their improved basement wall system. Or the foamboard system from Fiberglas for their basement system? Or the ICF foundation system? Or the foam beads as sold locally by an insulation manufacturer for 25+ years? Or the uncovered foam-sprayed "conditioned" attics which are improving the efficiency of US houses and reducing problems with attic ducted/mounted HVAC systems?

Where do we draw the line with the foam products?

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Brian

That's a very good question! If I was asked this question yesterday I would have said that there is nothing wrong with using this product.

Having done some research on this and knowing what I know today about (Styrofoam) "Polystyrene" I would not use it inside the home. I know that some builders use it on the exterior of the home to gain the required R-Value for homes built in Ontario (when constructing the shell with 2x4 wood studs)and my stucco guy recently used it to stucco an entire house that I was working on.
I will tell you as of today I will not take my left over Chinese food home in a Styrofoam package.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Brian

That's a very good question! If I was asked this question yesterday I would have said that there is nothing wrong with using this product.

Having done some research on this and knowing what I know today about (Styrofoam) "Polystyrene" I would not use it inside the home. I know that some builders use it on the exterior of the home to gain the required R-Value for homes built in Ontario (when constructing the shell with 2x4 wood studs)and my stucco guy recently used it to stucco an entire house that I was working on.
I will tell you as of today I will not take my left over Chinese food home in a Styrofoam package.

Haven't done as much research as you may have but have known for years about the potential problems with its use in the food packing industry.

[Brian C. Hoagland]

I can't believe the debate on this has raged on. Good job Mario I hope everyone follows your lead. Everything that is installed in a home is scrutinized by some sort of testing procedure by some sort of 3rd party charged by some governmental or industrial entity to ensure it's safety, then the manner and locations for installation are approved by code organizations. Then those codes are adopted by and enforced by local jurisdictions with tax dollars, for the public welfare. When anything you find during an inspection doesn't look to you like it was made to be used for the purpose it was installed for, do yourself a favor and raise the red flag, call it out in your inspection report and save a trip to court later.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by bhoagland

I can't believe the debate on this has raged on. Good job Mario I hope everyone follows your lead. Everything that is installed in a home is scrutinized by some sort of testing procedure by some sort of 3rd party charged by some governmental or industrial entity to ensure it's safety, then the manner and locations for installation are approved by code organizations. Then those codes are adopted by and enforced by local jurisdictions with tax dollars, for the public welfare. When anything you find during an inspection doesn't look to you like it was made to be used for the purpose it was installed for, do yourself a favor and raise the red flag, call it out in your inspection report and save a trip to court later.

In staged artificial fire situation videos put on by various firefighting training organizations, I've seen draperies rage quickly and the fire climb in seconds. We have no regulations on these!!! The material that seems to sustain fires best and longest, the wood framing/sheathing, is only manufactured to quality, durability and stress/weight load standards. Not a thing said about fire safety and covering every piece of wood framing with at least 1/2 inch drywall or fire-rated drywall, yet in wood framing housing, just about every wire goes through or runs along wood somewhere. Should all wood be fire retardent treated?

The #1 area for fires to start is the kitchen. Shouldn't all kitchens be stainless steel, right to the walls and ceilings with non combustible floors, framing & cupboards, no paint anywhere and every kitchen be sprinklered. We could save a hell of a lot of $$$ and lives if we attacked the main problem rather than the "perceived" problem that in some jurisdictions is meeting codes. Analyze the situation on facts not on "looks".

Or do we remove and not recommend styrene insulation in all houses?

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Brian

That's a very good question! If I was asked this question yesterday I would have said that there is nothing wrong with using this product.

Having done some research on this and knowing what I know today about (Styrofoam) "Polystyrene" I would not use it inside the home. I know that some builders use it on the exterior of the home to gain the required R-Value for homes built in Ontario (when constructing the shell with 2x4 wood studs)and my stucco guy recently used it to stucco an entire house that I was working on.
I will tell you as of today I will not take my left over Chinese food home in a Styrofoam package.

Mario:

If your now afraid of styrene due to its chemical release, take a walk down the toy section aisles of Walmart or others. You get such a plethora of pungent and sickly chemical smells that you may get nauseous!! I'm am quite healthy with no known allergies/sensitivities (well too much alcohol gets me a headache the next day!!) but when I take that walk, I occasionally run into something that I can't stand and have to move on quickly. And we're buying these for our chidren who are more susceptiple to air borne chemicals due to their higher respiration rates in relation to their body size versus adults!!

Want to guess where some of the problems from asthma, allergies & other environmental sensitivities and cancers originate from? And for a while people were freaking out about the little amounts of asbestos in the vermiculite in their attics where they never ventured!!! They never have or will approach the exposures that those who worked in the asbestos industry for 20-30 years straight without breathing protection...period!!

We can and have created "the sky is falling" mentality on a regular basis only to find that we overreacted. About 18 years ago, a news piece mentioned lead paint on metal blind louvers. You had to be careful that in children's rooms with the blinds, they weren't touching the blinds, putting their hands or the louvers in their mouths, etc. I came home to find 6-7 of our windows without blinds...they were in the garbage; our kids never did any of the above as in the bedrooms, the window sills were too high for them to touch the blinds (all casement windows). I'd be afraid of placing a crib or bed near the strings of these blinds as they have been known to strangle a few children!!