Honest questions about CMI

[Joseph Burkeson, CMI]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

To stand back and say "the qualifications should be higher" always sounds noble.
Who could not admire a man who is calling for a higher form of excellence?
I could say that only those who have 2000 inspection and 7 years of experience...
and everyone would think I have the most noble ideals... until someone else
raises the bar again,,, so they can now "talk down" to the rest of.

Agreed, NACHI is the only association still raising the bar, just a cursory glance at ASHI reveals that they have been lowering the bar since their inception.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by dharris

A legal national certification.???

Applying and paying for a title with requirements that change to meet the persons qualifications in charge of it, qualifies as a legal national certification.

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Dan;

Please understand me. I AM NOT trying to defend anything, just staing some facts. Maybe a comparison will help.

The National Association of Realtors is a private association. It sets its own rules and (I believe) is incorporated.

So is InterNACH and so is CMI (as seperate entities).

The NAR has legally trademarked certifications (Realtor, ARB, etc). Since the NAR owns those designations, they get to determine who they will bestow them to and what rules and criteria will apply.

Same with InterNACHI member and "Full" member. Same with CMI.

All perfectly legal and up front.

All three of these groups has every right to change the requirements for these "certifications" at any time they choose for whatever reason they choose.

The public (you and me) can disagree with the criteria and can complain that the rules are not tough enough.

But the public has NO RIGHT to DEMAND that the criteria is changed.

I can, perfectly legally and ethiclly, create a trademarked designation and attach certain criteria to it (let's say NROSI, Nationally Registered Orange Shirt Inspectors) and have a logo and solicit people to apply for the designation and can certify that all those who use this designation have met the criteria I have set up (and that I can change at any time I please, for no reason at all) and can legally sue anoyone who uses the certification without my OK (for WHATEVER reason). All perfectly legal, ethical and above board.

And, if I can get the general public to agree that NROSI inspectors are the bestest dang home inspectors out there, that is also perfectly legal, ethical and above board.

You may not like these facts, but they are, none the less, facts.

If you don't like CMI, I would suggest that you don't apply or, even better, that you spend your time, energy and money coming up with a "better" (whatever that may mean to you) certification.

I believe that another association has another designation, CRI. Is this other certification better? If so, why? It is owned by another association and that association has set the rules for its use, have they not?

In the end, it is for the public to decide.

Care to rebut (rather than just rant) these facts?

[Doug Edwards]

Do Not Feed the Bears!

[Joseph Burkeson, CMI]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

Let me explain it slowly....

Just as a Father has the wisdom to meet the needs of the infants and yet also has
the wisdom to train and reward the older teenagers... so does Nick have this wisdom
with the InterNACHI family as well. This does not divide the InterNACHI family from
being a united family. Nick does not give any benefits to CMI's that are not available
to all and does not place any requirement on the InterNACHI family regarding
CMI.

In a truly "tiered" system, their is no access for anyone to achieve anything.
There are many educational achievements a person can gain and in the
InterNACHI family everyone is free to grow into all of those achievements.

CMI is just ONE of many designations than anyone can grow into.

Great post, worth repeating - thanks John.

[Nick Gromicko]

Joe Burkeson, dead on again with his post #331. Love the "cursory glance" thing. I had to look up what it meant .

And furthermore, InterNACHI is not just raising the bar for the sake of making things harder. We're keeping up with the changes in our industry with an eye on the future: http://www.nachi.org/gonegreen2007.htm

[lcapaul]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Perhaps it is your choice of word...."gimmick".

School teachers who want to increase their salaries use a similar "gimmick" by achieving the M.A. or M.S. designation.

Army officers who want to increase their salaries use a similar "gimmick" by achieving the "Col." designation.

The list goes on as to how people use this "gimmick" to increase the amount of money they make.

Karl Marx...and you....seem to have problems with it, but it seems to work pretty good for the rest of us.

The trouble with your examples James, is that they all require proctored Testing, supervised experience, none of your examples can be "purchased" like CMI, thye have to be earned and proven.

You once again demonstrate your great knowledge of things military when you meant the use of a "Col" designation, that rank is earned by demonstrating proficiency, education, and ability, I suppose YOU wold just purchase the "Eagles" and put them on your collar, declaring yourself to be a Colonel, just like many doe with CMI.. There's a more accurate comparison.

[lcapaul]

Originally Posted by gromicko

Joe Burkeson, dead on again with his post #331. Love the "cursory glance" thing. I had to look up what it meant .

And furthermore, InterNACHI is not just raising the bar for the sake of making things harder. We're keeping up with the changes in our industry with an eye on the future: http://www.nachi.org/gonegreen2007.htm

Yet here's what ole' Joe had to say a year ago or so, back before he was a Nachi Vendor?

A new CMI formula. I've jumped to the other side of the fence.
For the record... CMI's sole purpose is to generate income by selling non-accredited home inspection courses through quack education peddler's who's promise to inexperienced home inspectors is right to call themselves "master inspector" upon completion.

The net-net effect of all this smoke & mirrors chicanery will be a continued loss of consumer confidence in our profession, and a further distancing of CMI bag-holders from the body of true professionals.

In all honesty most everyone knows the CMI certificate ain't worth the paper its printed on, furthermore no honest, professional, educated home inspector would subject themselves to the three-ring circus of bozo's who make up the CMI board of directors.

Until CMI's are measured on the proven merits of experience, education & proctored testing and the board of directors are comprised of professional home inspectors this program will languish in the back alleys of the home inspection profession with the "mold is gold" crowd of hookers & pimps.
--
Look here brother, who you jivin' with that cosmic debris?

And:

I suggest that people of influence within our profession who see CMI as a pox upon it work together locally on a grass roots level to make sure the non-accredited quack education peddlers are hampered in every way legally possible. There is already a movement here in Florida to bar any pro-CMI vendors from working with local NACHI chapters, and I suggest you take up the banner where you work. Anyway CMI is its own worst enemy and as long as highly respected inspectors of stature continue to disassociate themselves with CMI, little forward growth from here can be expected.

Ole' Joe, he was a lot smarter back then, and a lot more honest about his beliefs.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by jburkeson1

Agreed, NACHI is the only association still raising the bar, just a cursory glance at ASHI reveals that they have been lowering the bar since their inception.

Indeed.

You are instantly a "member", now, when the check clears. Additionally, the 250 inspection rule is gone since "ride-a-longs" now count toward that number.

Aside from St. Louis, where ASHI is in bed with the real estate salespeople in a "referral cooperative", it is legitimately hard to objectively find a benefit of membership.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by lcapaul

The trouble with your examples James, is that they all require proctored Testing, supervised experience, none of your examples can be "purchased" like CMI, thye have to be earned and proven.

You once again demonstrate your great knowledge of things military when you meant the use of a "Col" designation, that rank is earned by demonstrating proficiency, education, and ability, I suppose YOU wold just purchase the "Eagles" and put them on your collar, declaring yourself to be a Colonel, just like many doe with CMI.. There's a more accurate comparison.

The "Peanut Gallery" is having a difficult time maintaining a consistent argument.

The idea of a designation for nothing more than "to increase fees" seems to bother some. Point out how many desginations are consistent with the desire for increased fees.....and we suddenly shift to "proctored tests".

Perhaps they should regroup and actually conclude exactly what their objections really are.

[Richard L. Bennett]

"Proctored Tests" are not required to advance in the Military for officers

"Proctored Tests" are required for some enlisted advancement

Some advancement is payed for by signing up for more years of service

Lets get the facts correct

rlb

[Nick Gromicko]

Many of the CE courses used to achieve the 1,000 number used proctored exams, and even proctored attendance. Exams are best used for grandfathering (to determine if someone need not take a course). Many CMIs are state licensed as well.

CMI is a professional designation based on the two best indicators of competence... Education and Experience in inspections.... not exam passing skills.

[lcapaul]

Originally Posted by jbushart

The "Peanut Gallery" is having a difficult time maintaining a consistent argument.

The idea of a designation for nothing more than "to increase fees" seems to bother some. Point out how many desginations are consistent with the desire for increased fees.....and we suddenly shift to "proctored tests".

Perhaps they should regroup and actually conclude exactly what their objections really are.

I have not trouble with a "designation" designed to do nothing otheer than "increase fees", only with those who attempt to use such a designation in an attempt to convince potential clients that the "designation" demonstrates competency.

The other objection is the false and misleading statements on the CMI Website, that demonstrate my first objection, the ALL CMI's have met the 1000 point requirement, when it's known to be untrue. Check back on this message board a year or so ago, what to do with those who did not meet the 1000 point standard was discussed here at length. Don't require CMI's to meet changing requirements, that's fine with me, but don't imply on your websites that they have. You argued that same point several months ago when it concerned ASHI and its Website saying that ALL ASHI Inspectors had passed the NHIE, they should change their "description" of their standards, just like CMI should.

Myself I choose to take Joe B's advice and conduct most of my opposition to CMI Locally and at State level. Locally it's easy to discredit CMI, by just using statements of Nachi Leaders such as yourself, Thsi subject has been discussed for a long time, there are many, many psots about what CMI is and about the fact that not all qualify. The lack of Testing itself, proctored or not, along with any other proof or examination of stated requirements by the CMI Board also makes it easy.

Most people when they see someone claiming the designation of Master, believe that extensive training, supervised proof of competence, and difficult proctored exams are involved in EARNING the desigantion, they're even more suprised to find out that CMI's don't, than they are to find out that the "Certified" Inspector they were thinking about hiring, earned his "Certification" by taking, or having someone help or take an Online exam for him. Those facts work extremely well in educating State and Local politicians about the word "Certified" as it pertains to Home Inspection.

Even Joe B knows that:

For the record... CMI's sole purpose is to generate income by selling non-accredited home inspection courses through quack education peddler's who's promise to inexperienced home inspectors is right to call themselves "master inspector" upon completion.

The net-net effect of all this smoke & mirrors chicanery will be a continued loss of consumer confidence in our profession, and a further distancing of CMI bag-holders from the body of true professionals.

In all honesty most everyone knows the CMI certificate ain't worth the paper its printed on, furthermore no honest, professional, educated home inspector would subject themselves to the three-ring circus of bozo's who make up the CMI board of directors.

Until CMI's are measured on the proven merits of experience, education & proctored testing and the board of directors are comprised of professional home inspectors this program will languish in the back alleys of the home inspection profession with the "mold is gold" crowd of hookers & pimps.
--
Look here brother, who you jivin' with that cosmic debris?


Joe Burkeson 6/27/06, 11:31 PM

For the REcord, I agree with Joe B., but now he doens't agree with himself it seems.

[Nick Gromicko]

I was no the phone with Joe Ferry (arguably the best attorney in Philadelphia) while reading your post so I asked him if he could pass today's bar. He said "no chance."

Lewis, do you think that every time they update the bar (to include such modern topics such as internet intellectual property) the state should make all the attorney's pass it?

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Perhaps it is your choice of word...."gimmick".

School teachers who want to increase their salaries use a similar "gimmick" by achieving the M.A. or M.S. designation.

Army officers who want to increase their salaries use a similar "gimmick" by achieving the "Col." designation.

The list goes on as to how people use this "gimmick" to increase the amount of money they make.

Karl Marx...and you....seem to have problems with it, but it seems to work pretty good for the rest of us.

From post #275 by JBowman:

It's an excellent marketing gimmick.

Very marketable for inspectors that live in areas inundated with competition. But IMO a big waste of time for those that live or work in suburbia or have a less than average competion base.

I do believe that it is a plausible first step and look forward to the day when someone or a group formulate a meaningful professional designation versus a simple marketing designation.

[Nick Gromicko]

3 years experience, 1,000 inspections or Continuing Education hours, toughest Code of Ethics ever written, and criminal background check... sounds pretty meaningful to me!

Remember, FOR THE SAKE OF THE CONSUMER it has to also be achievable. Kind of stupid to make a meaningful designation that nearly no one can earn.

After years of debate, the day John describes already came. Here it is www.certifiedmasterinspector.org