Infared cameras

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by cradan

Will, I don't doubt you've got 20+ years of experience in thermal imaging, and I don't doubt you're trained to use the cute little gizmo. I would, however, be very careful about "statements of proof."

*Scenario* : Decker inspects S.F.D home, thermal images two shots of attic structure, no problems detected. No problems visually detected in attic walk-through, either. But, as it turns out, it hasn't rained for two weeks, and it's August 10th. Attic temperature (even with an ample 1 sq./ft. net ventilation per 150' sq./ft of attic floor) is about 105, F. Everything's dry as a tinderbox. Decker debriefs client at site, verbally, indicating that the gizmo proves there's no leakage problem at the roof/attic structure. Decker states in written report, "thermal imaging and visual inspection reveal no problems." Client moves-in, and on September 29th of that same year, the roof receives 1" of rain in 3 hours. The thing leaks like a sieve....

Will your client sue? Mebbe, mebbe not. If he does, will he win? Probably not. Either way, will he be a happy camper? Mmmmm. NO. Let me repeat that. NO. He will not be a happy camper, he will be a crappy hamper. You will NOT receive future referrals from this client. Bottom line...the gizmo's probably a great tool for a wide variety of circumstances, and may provide absolutely incomparable protection when operating in certain other circumstances. On the other hand, it's no more infallible than you are. Love the idea on the technical side, but I'd be a bit more careful on the marketing side, regarding certain client expectations you may create. Don't let your Flircam write a check your bank account can't cover.

All good points, Chris. If you can't afford it, don't do it. Plan carefully and work the plan and adjust if things don't work as planned.

Never bet the kid's college money!

To clarify, my inspection agreement and my report verbiage states that the inspection only reports on the conditions "at the time of the inspection". I carefully document the conditions (rained in the last three days, temperature, relative humidity in the attic and outside, etc.). That is part of the training that you get when you get certifications.

Also, my "20+ years of experience with thermal imaging" was primarily in the medical field (breast cancer screening) which is not the same thing as building science. I work hard to understand the difference. Breasts are not roofs (thank G-d!).

But the Physics is the same. Different is different, same is the same. Reflectivity and Emissivity and Thermal Mass remains the same. They are measurable variables and should always be carefully detrmined and considered.

Again, I am just describing my experience. Everyone should carefully weigh they own options. I am just trying to help people avoid my mistakes. I am not an expert, just am HI trying to make a living.

[alarsen1]

Originally Posted by cradan

*Scenario* : Decker inspects S.F.D home, thermal images two shots of attic structure, no problems detected. No problems visually detected in attic walk-through, either. But, as it turns out, it hasn't rained for two weeks, and it's August 10th. Attic temperature (even with an ample 1 sq./ft. net ventilation per 150' sq./ft of attic floor) is about 105, F. Everything's dry as a tinderbox. Decker debriefs client at site, verbally, indicating that the gizmo proves there's no leakage problem at the roof/attic structure. Decker states in written report, "thermal imaging and visual inspection reveal no problems." Client moves-in, and on September 29th of that same year, the roof receives 1" of rain in 3 hours. The thing leaks like a sieve....

Excellent point... which is why it is important to know the limitations of any gizmo as well as its abilities. You should always be smarter than your gizmos! (Hey! I think there's a tag-line there!)

Bottom line... in knowing the limitations of the thermal imaging camera, in a situation where it's dryer than a popcorn fart (a hot attic where there IS air movement - as opposed to a closed wall cavity where there is no air movement) you can articulate these abilities and limitations. In other words, you wouldn't even pull the fancy unit out of your tool bag and shoot pics of the roof & attic, as you know that water only exists in the plumbing.

[alarsen1]

Originally Posted by poliner

One other question, Paul... Did you used to drive a bus?

No busses involved, my ex business partner and I were stuck in traffic thinking of names; nearly got side swiped by a bus.
It is not very imaginative but in all my previous businesses generic names have worked.

Haha...

Originally Posted by poliner

Your post is very well thought out and does raise some questions as how to blend in this extra service.
William's post also raises the the Bar for the minimum standards of practice. Especially where condos are concerned, I've seen so many terrible stucco applications with obvious indicators of trouble, it would be good sometimes to be able to back up my concerns with other than "Further Evaluation". The Realtor usually counters with "There's nothing in the minutes" I have not seen too many strata minutes address these problem full on, they tend to use fluffy language so as to not reduce their unit values.

Too true!

Originally Posted by poliner

The question I guess still is that the SOP being minimum protects a lot of Home Inspectors from overstepping their expertise, and Infrared technology somewhat blows the SOP's out the water..

And then there's the issue I read about on another thread... that states that your insurance will NOT cover you if you work outside of your association's Standard of Practice - whether or not "outside" is defined as working below it or above it... outside is outside. So there may be this to consider as well? I don't know...

Originally Posted by poliner

Arne your verbage headers & footers for HG is the most comprehensive I've seen you must have put a lot of thought into it, do you incorporate any live links, as I have found them popular with punters/realtors used to having the Big book, type manual reports.

Thanks for the comliment... I think... LOL! I noticed you use HG too. I really like it. Over time I've developed my verbage. In my other life, communication revolved around report writing, so writing comes pretty natural to me. I do have to go back and check my spelling though! No live links... which is perhaps why I find myself explaining things a bit more than I really need to some of the time.

Originally Posted by poliner

As a sidebar I have a couple of expat contacts involved in trades and they seem to think the SOP is a bit of a joke, and get lots of enquiries/ work from home buyers following up Inspection concerns.

They can't be joking too much if it's getting them work!

If we ever combined forces we could be West Coast Mountain Home Inspections!

[poliner]

Arne
This thread is raising more questions than answers. The SOP/ E&O is to be considered. Your points earlier with the analogy of a doctor is a good one and proberly worth remembering, the SOP's are tried and tested to some degree.
The HG software is good and flexible. It was a compliment: re your verbage, its an area I must profess to being weak in.
West Coast Mountain Home Insp....may give the other multi Inspectors a run for their money!!.
Anyways as ever your posts are very enlightening, I am off up the sunshine coast, have a good one.
Regards

Paul

[jrivera]

Originally Posted by jrivera

and it may work well with that Home Maintenance program somebody has around here also, I forget who has that though. Mic

Kevin that's great, what type of camera did you get for work (and play!)

[jrivera]

Originally Posted by krichardson

I just leased a FLIR BCam SD!
www.flirdirect.com

-Kevin

Der, I just saw the answer to my question. LOL

[Mathew Hawley]

William,

What are the benifits of the B2-Cam over the B-Cam. I am leaning torwards a B-cam, mainly because of the price difference. What are your thoughts on one vs the other. I have read the specs on both and they seam simular, but would like some input from someone with one. Thanks in advance.

[alarsen1]

Originally Posted by mhawley

William,

What are the benifits of the B2-Cam over the B-Cam. I am leaning torwards a B-cam, mainly because of the price difference. What are your thoughts on one vs the other. I have read the specs on both and they seam simular, but would like some input from someone with one. Thanks in advance.

Just reading over and comparing the website info...

~ 33% Improved Image Qualilty - with improved sensitivity, you can see smaller temperture differences and get sharper images

~ SD Memory card, so your image files are transportable

[Mathew Hawley]

Thanks Arne,

I better see a demo on both and decide if the picture quality and extra sensitivity is worth the extra almost $4000. Ill most likely take a level 1 class and start with a lease to see what kind of responce I get.

[gporter]

Where are the classes offered.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by mhawley

William,

What are the benifits of the B2-Cam over the B-Cam. I am leaning torwards a B-cam, mainly because of the price difference. What are your thoughts on one vs the other. I have read the specs on both and they seam simular, but would like some input from someone with one. Thanks in advance.

I wanted the B2, but couldn't swing the cost. The B2 has some neat features.

• Better resolution. WIth the B, you have to step back more to get a decent picture.
• The B2 holds less pictures, but keeps the pixal data from the pictures for analysis with the included software. With the software, but can draw lines acrooss the picture and get a graph.
• The B2 also has a feature which calculates the dew point in the image and highlights it.

These are what I was looking for.

As to training, check here:

http://www2.flirthermography.com/training/

http://www.inspectortools.com/dile.html

http://iristhermography.com/level_1_infrared.htm

http://www.snellinfrared.com/course/coursemap.asp

Hope this helps;

[Mathew Hawley]

Thanks William

[alarsen1]

Originally Posted by wdecker

I wanted the B2, but couldn't swing the cost. The B2 has some neat features.

• Better resolution. WIth the B, you have to step back more to get a decent picture.
• The B2 holds less pictures, but keeps the pixal data from the pictures for analysis with the included software. With the software, but can draw lines acrooss the picture and get a graph.
• The B2 also has a feature which calculates the dew point in the image and highlights it.

These are what I was looking for.

As to training, check here:

http://www2.flirthermography.com/training/

http://www.inspectortools.com/dile.html

http://iristhermography.com/level_1_infrared.htm

http://www.snellinfrared.com/course/coursemap.asp

Hope this helps;

Have you ever compared the B2 to the Fluke InSight models or the Fluke Ti20 Thermal Imager?

[alarsen1]

Originally Posted by mhawley

Thanks Arne,

I better see a demo on both and decide if the picture quality and extra sensitivity is worth the extra almost $4000. Ill most likely take a level 1 class and start with a lease to see what kind of responce I get.

Woops... my bad... I was looking at the SD model.

Too many to choose from! Maybe I'll go with the BX320 for $15,000! That should be worth upping my prices by a few dollars an inspection!

[gporter]

Thanks for the info.