Septic Systems

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

My mentor showed me some methods of reporting and testing that has worked for him, and others for over 15 years with no call backs.

I really spend a lot of time at the site explaining the limitations of the inspection
and the various levels of dealing with problems (the gray world of what
works and what is legal). I warn them about several factors that I cannot
see and put the system through a flood test.

John,

Would you mind sharing your mentors methods?

What is a "flood test"?

I'm always willing to learn!

THANX

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by badair

John,

Would you mind sharing your mentors methods?

What is a "flood test"?

I'm always willing to learn!

THANX

If you look up what a non aerobic system is suppose to be able to process
in a day (three bedroom - two bathroom house), and then run the
water in the house to just under that threshold, you have now flood
tested that septic system.

I have measured the water meter and found that running the water from
every fixture and flushing toilets (several times) can insert approx. 200gals
into the system, in approx. 20 min.

If it backs up, smells, or has above ground seepage outside, then it fails.

Limitations ...

- tanks might be empty from not being used
(tell the client that the test will not be valid if the house has not been in use
and let them get it ready 24 hours in advance).

I then tell the client, that unless they can see written records of proper pumping,
then the system has already been marginalizes. They need to call the county
agent and get a verification of the systems certification and check with the
local authorities to see other restrictions are in place. All systems in Texas
should be certified (after 1988 )

When I see too much slope in the grading, limited space for installation,
or suspect the tanks or systems are too close to house, under driveways,
too close to property lines, too close to water wells, too close to public
lakes, or just look suspicious... I always call for further evaluation by a
Septic Specialist.

I then warn the Client that the system could fail tomorrow, because
this is just a very basic, cursory inspection and it is impossible to know
much about the system when you cannot even see it.!!!

I then tell them to have it cleaned and pumped. If they fail to heed my
warning, and it fails a few months later... I can always tell them
that they did not clean it like I told them to. It takes work to keep
a system operating like it should.

I over emphasis the fact that they need further inspections if they want
more assurance and I put this in writing.

I discuss the available options on how "some people make repairs"
vs calling for a licensed installer, who will fail the system as soon
as he steps foot on their property and slap them with a $6000 fee
for a new aerobic system. Most people will make their own repairs
out here in the country side, and not tell anyone. How are they going
to prosecute me, when they are making illegal, but functional repairs?

I do not recommend illegal repairs.... but many still do it in the
real world of owning a septic system.

In other words, I let them know all their options and tell them to please
understand that I can only tell them so much, based on such a small
fee and a very limited visual inspection.

Over 50% of the systems fail the inspecton and flood test.
I have not had a single call or complaint in 9 years, from a client
or a seller.

If a seller would happen to complain then I would tell them to call a
licensed installer, and do an invasive inspection, and prove that their system
is OK.

To do that, it will cost them several hundred dollars and there is a 99% chance
it does not meet current code. So how can they prove I killed the deal and
their system is really working. They cannot.

When I fail the system, they cannot prove me wrong, because
a licensed installer is going to fail it for sure, after me, 99% of the time. IMHO.
Why? I failed it visually and he will fail it by code, and invasive inspection.

So here is the breakdown on old non aerobic systems:

50% fail the flood test ... (no liability for me).
25% need more evaluation (no liability for me).
Most will not clean and pump their system when I leave (no liability for me).
I recommend verifying proper certifications and checking with local authorities,
before closing on the property.

Of those system that I say are OK, and then have a problem later,
most people will choose to do their own illegal repairs instead of the
expense of a new aerobic system and taking me to court. IMHO.
This is just my opinion, from what I have seen so far.

I believe the above methods help ensure low liability and a fair-limited
visual inspection of the septic system.

It takes 25-30 min. and I charge $35 for this helpful service. I
go back every couple minutes to check for backup problems and
flush toilets.

Many people want me to do their full house inspection, instead of the
other guys, because this fee is so cheap. But hey... my starting fee
for the whole house inspection is already double the normal fees, for
here in east Texas.

I hope I have covered all the bases.

BTW... get the owners permission to run the water for the flood
test. Some owners refuse the test, not because they are afraid of
the septic failing, but do no want you to find out that the water well
goes dry in 15 min....

Watch out for back up problems. I have flooded a couple
bathrooms by not watching close enough. You will have
about a 2 min. (mabey) warning before the toilet or shower
decides to overflow.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

John:

Isn't the flood test a bit unfair?

To load a system with a full day's 200+ gallons in 20 minutes is not the natural flow to the leach field which is usually spread out over 16-18 hours from 6 AM until 12 AM. A field may easily absorb 60-100 or so gallons from early morning use of flushes and showers but floods when the total day's load is dumped on it in 20 minutes. No field is designed to accept the daily load in 20 minutes.

I have used this test a couple of times to prove a point when I suspect breakout from the field and have to prove it to someone (the signs and smell of breakout should be enough but they want strong visual proof). It usually only takes a few minutes tap running and flushes before blackwater appears on the soil surface. The last one I remember was at a Vendor agent's daughter's place!!

[John B. Allen]

Originally Posted by Rick Sovastion

I'm pulling what little hair that I have left out. I'm looking for an inspection agreement for septic systems. I checked the archives but found nothing. Anyone have one that I could model mine after.

I use a form with an agreement and the test results all in one. i can try to uplaod or send it via email if you like. Just e mail me and i will see what i can do. It would be in a pdf file but copying it should be easy. Just tweak it to fit.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

John:

Isn't the flood test a bit unfair?

To load a system with a full day's 200+ gallons in 20 minutes is not the natural flow to the leach field which is usually spread out over 16-18 hours from 6 AM until 12 AM. A field may easily absorb 60-100 or so gallons from early morning use of flushes and showers but floods when the total day's load is dumped on it in 20 minutes. No field is designed to accept the daily load in 20 minutes.

I have used this test a couple of times to prove a point when I suspect breakout from the field and have to prove it to someone (the signs and smell of breakout should be enough but they want strong visual proof). It usually only takes a few minutes tap running and flushes before blackwater appears on the soil surface. The last one I remember was at a Vendor agent's daughter's place!!

I have talked with Licensed Septic Installers and they sometimes use the
same flood test. When you figure that on a busy weekend when everyone
and the relatives gets home from swimming, they might all start...

washing cloths
several start bathing
washing dishes
run water for cooking
flush the toilet several times
wash veggies
wash hands
make ice tea, pour out old drinks
etc...

A lot can happen in 20 minutes...
You see, a septic system is suppose to work on the busiest day
of the year even if it has been raining outside for two weeks.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

John:

From Rhode Island:

.5.2 Calculating the flow trial volume

Normal wastewater flows vary over the course of a day, peaking during the
morning and evening hours when people are most likely to use the kitchen, bathroom and laundry facilities. The greatest flow that may enter a system during an hour of time is called the peak one-hour flow. As it is typically the most stressful condition experienced by a system, the peak one-hour flow is also the condition that the flow trial is designed to approximate (i.e., peak one-hour flow = flow trial volume).

An examination of the literature indicates that peak one-hour flow can be
estimated as 12 times the average hourly flow or half the daily flow. Systems in RhodeIsland are designed based on the daily flow (i.e., design flow = daily flow), which can be calculated as 150 gallons per bedroom per day.

10 Therefore, flow trial volumes can be calculated as half the design flow or as the number of bedrooms times 75 gallons.

Table 5.4 indicates flow trial volumes for homes relative to number of bedrooms and design-flow volumes.

Table 5.4 Minimum Flow Trial Volumes Relative to Number of Bedrooms and Design Flow

Number of Bedrooms/ Design Flow (Gallons/Day)/ Flow Trial Volume (Gallons)

2 300 150
3 450 225
4 600 300
5 750 375
6 900 450


My comments:

As you can see, I'm the ultimate sceptic. On house issues/repair costs that I have verified/seen the need for, I feel confident with estimates from good contractors. Using a full day volume for a flood test is still something I'm not confident with, even when from septic tank installers. Maybe less confident from installers as they have the most to gain!!! This culture is increasingly "All about the dollar" so I trust less and less. The full load test may generate a job that does not have to be done- good for the installer and makes the inspector look real good to the purchaser.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

10 Therefore, flow trial volumes can be calculated as half the design flow or as the number of bedrooms times 75 gallons.

3 Bedrooms X 75 = 225

This trial amount for a 3 bedroom house is more than I test with.
I suggested only 200 gal. Whats the problem?

It appears your post backs up my methods. What I'm I missing?

[Brian A. MacNeish]

John:

After a bit of research, I'm confused with the last series of posts and want to clear things up for the board. You posted:

"If you look up what a non aerobic system is suppose to be able to process in a day (three bedroom - two bathroom house), and then run the water in the house to just under that threshold, you have now flood tested that septic system.

From your info, I was assuming the full day's flow would be 200 gal. From the RI chart (which I found later in our postings), the assumed daily flow is 450 gallons so just under that threshold is 400+ gallons.


I also posted about a full day's flow for the flood test to which no corrections of my assumptions were made:

"To load a system with a full day's 200+ gallons in 20 minutes is not the natural flow to the leach field which is usually spread out over 16-18 hours from 6 AM until 12 AM. A field may easily absorb 60-100 or so gallons from early morning use of flushes and showers but floods when the total day's load is dumped on it in 20 minutes. No field is designed to accept the daily load in 20 minutes"



"Using a full day volume for a flood test is still something I'm not confident with, even when from septic tank installers."


So, for the board, "Go to a chart or remember 150 gallons/bedroom and flood test at half that rate or 75 gallons per bedroom." seems to be the operational guideline.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

John:

After a bit of research, I'm confused with the last series of posts and want to clear things up for the board. You posted:

"If you look up what a non aerobic system is suppose to be able to process in a day (three bedroom - two bathroom house), and then run the water in the house to just under that threshold, you have now flood
tested that septic system.
From your info, I was assuming the fulls day flow would be 200 gal. From the RI chart (which I found later in our postings), the assumed daily flow is 450 gallons so just under that threshold is 400+ gallons.


I also posted about a full day's flow for the flood test to which no corrections
of my assumptions were made:

"To load a system with a full day's 200+ gallons in 20 minutes is not the natural flow to the leach field which is usually spread out over 16-18 hours from 6 AM until 12 AM. A field may easily absorb 60-100 or so gallons from early morning use of flushes and showers but floods when the total day's load is dumped on it in 20 minutes. No field is designed to accept the daily load in 20 minutes"

"Using a full day volume for a flood test is still something I'm not confident with, even when from septic tank installers."


So, for the board, "Go to a chart or remember 150 gallons/bedroom and flood test at half that rate or 75 gallons per bedroom." seems to be the operational guideline.

I am glad you see that now.

75 x 3 Bedrooms = 225.

My recommended post was for a 200 gal flood test.
You and me now agree.

Thanks.

[John B. Allen]

My septic test is this:
50 gallons X how many bedrooms in house.
while this is occuring i open the tank to be sure the dye flows into the tank itself. Then while the test is being done I walk the feild 3 times probing various areas. I also walk into woods and out into streets to see if the 'grey water' is flowing elsewhere. if there i a creek i walk it roughly 2000 feet or so to see if dye it seen.

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

If a seller would happen to complain then I would tell them to call a
licensed installer, and do an invasive inspection, and prove that their system
is OK.

How often has this happened to you? My concern with septic tests is that the seller will make a case that I caused the failure by shock loading the system. I would not be suprised if the courts took up a silly case like that.

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by nwagner

How often has this happened to you? My concern with septic tests is that the seller will make a case that I caused the failure by shock loading the system. I would not be suprised if the courts took up a silly case like that.

In order to prove I was wrong, the seller would have to hire a licensed
Septic Installer to make a written statement, with his license number on it,
that the old Septic System was OK. The problem with that is, these guys
are instructed to go by today's code ONLY. They have no option.

If you read all the qualifications of what makes a system stand up to
today's code, an old system will fail 99% of the time.

If the seller calls the installer out to his property to prove me wrong,
and then finds out that his system fails today's code, the installer
can then place a time limit and force the seller to upgrade to a
new $6000 aerobic system, on penalty of a fine. The installer
is mandated to turn that seller's name over to the county for
having a failed system in need of repair. So there is a lot at
stake, if they call an installer out and try and prove me wrong. If
a seller fails in their attempt, it forces a $6000 repair down
their throat.

Most Realtors will tell the seller to just let it go and wait
for the next jerk to buy the house, as is. The Realtor
is not going to make a commission, unless they find another
lucky soul to buy the property. Why go after me and delay
the sale? Sometimes people's greed works to protect
you.

If the installer certifies that an old system is OK, and it does
not meet today's code... the installer knows he will be the
one who has to buy the new $6000 system and loose his
license for negligence. It takes two signatures to certify
a system in Texas.

So you see, it is not as easy as it sounds, to attack my
findings.

I just had a situation where a builder wanted to sue me for
failing an old septic system. I simply told him to find a license
installer who would stamp his license number on it and I'm
dead meat. He never found anyone willing to do it.

Read the above numbers again in the previous post, it proves
that my test is within the normal ranges, and others do the
same type of testing. They have been dong it for years and
that is why these numbers have been written as an industry
standard.

Have you ever inspected a septic system?

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by jmckenna1

Have you ever inspected a septic system?

Nope, I defer to the reputable installers in the area. Heck, most of the time the seller provides a "septic inspection report" before I arrive. Most of those "reports" are nothing more than a measurement of the sludge and scum levels and checking the appropriate box for "Are there any indications of system failure". One of the installers that I defer to says that those types of "reports" are done by those who lack enough knowledge to properly inspect them, typically pumpers and the occassional home inspector.

When you speak of installers being forced to inspect by code, is mandated by the state of Texas or is it a federal policy?

[John McKenna]

Originally Posted by nwagner

Nope, I defer to the reputable installers in the area. Heck, most of the time the seller provides a "septic inspection report" before I arrive. Most of those "reports" are nothing more than a measurement of the sludge and scum levels and checking the appropriate box for "Are there any indications of system failure". One of the installers that I defer to says that those types of "reports" are done by those who lack enough knowledge to properly inspect them, typically pumpers and the occassional home inspector.

When you speak of installers being forced to inspect by code, is mandated by the state of Texas or is it a federal policy?

I can only tell you what I know about Texas, but the pressure is building from
the EPA federal level and puts more and more pressure on the local govt.'s

Inspectors here have been given the SoP to do visual inspections, but the
installers do not go by our SoP.