1-day Illinois state-approved inspection course in Chicago on October 21, 2006.

[James H. Bushart]

Will,

You posted your scheduled event.

You posted your intent to charge 100% more for NACHI members outside of your area to attend you event than NACHI members who happen to belong to your chapter.

I posted my objection to it. I find nothing in any of your subsequent posted attempts to justify this to be of merit or that I care to spend the time to personally discuss. I still think it is wrong.

Chapters act autonomous of the national association. Accordingly, you are within your legal rights to commit this injustice...but it is still wrong.

I hope you will have a change of heart and do the right thing by giving all NACHI members access to NACHI funded resources at the same price...not because you have to, but because it is the right thing to do.

If your chapter has costs, allow all NACHI members in attendance to share in them, equally.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Will,

You posted your scheduled event.

At the request of our membership and Executive Board. Yes.

You posted your intent to charge 100% more for NACHI members outside of your area to attend you event than NACHI members who happen to belong to your chapter.

Based upon the vote of our Executive Board, Board of Review and membership. Yes.

I posted my objection to it. I find nothing in any of your subsequent posted attempts to justify this to be of merit or that I care to spend the time to personally discuss. I still think it is wrong.

That is your read. You do not work in a licensed state, nor are you required to take state licensed CE to retain you livelihood. I do understand your position. Do you understand mine? That is the purpose of discussion. I do not disagree with your position. I am, none the less, bound by the will and vote of the members that I serve as President. I hope you can understand this. I do not wish to "win you over: to my position, but I do value your ideas and opinion. That, among other things, is why I have been trying to contact you (via phone) for many weeks.

Chapters act autonomous of the national association. Accordingly, you are within your legal rights to commit this injustice...but it is still wrong.

Majority rule within a published set of rules and legal requirements are, sometimes, wrong. I agree. Injustice works both ways. What is your take on when the law requires one to act in ways that others consider to be unjust to others? As one of the Officers of a state Not-for-profit corporation, Chartered by NACHI national, I must act in this way. Please notice that the Illinois State Chapter is not (as far as I know) under these requirements. Hence, they charge the same price. I do not believe that, at this time, there are any members of the Illinois State Chapter or that it has any legal state status or requirements. I may be mistaken, but no one has informed my any differently.

I hope you will have a change of heart and do the right thing by giving all NACHI members access to NACHI funded resources at the same price...not because you have to, but because it is the right thing to do.

I agree with you as to the moral 'rightness' of your argument. I merely ask you to understand that, given the position I have (and its legal requirements), I cannot act any differently. MY heart is with your position, but my mind (and moral obligation, as well as legal position) must do what is required. Surely you are not asking me to violate the law? That would also be a violation of the NACHI rules.

If your chapter has costs, allow all NACHI members to share in them, equally.

How can I do this? What is the mechanism, the policy. How can I make NACHI national do this. Tell me, and I would be happy to do it. How can I make all the NACHI members in Illinois pay for this? Surely you don't want Russel Ray to chip in for our state approved and required CE education, do you. Why should the members in the (majority) states that do not require licensing or state CE licensing pay for those members in licensed states? I have offered the courses to anyone (per Joe F.) who wants them. Free. I have taught them in other states (free) and want to teach them on many more states (again, free), but am told, by NACHI authoritys that I cannot. When Joe F. teaches his wells course in your state, NACHI will be paying him (so I understand. If I am wrong, please correct me.). Following your logic, I should object to that. I do not. Who pays for these expenses in your Chapter? Please, let me know. Do you even have these same expenses? If you have a better way, I would also like to discuss this with you.

Call me.

Hope

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Will,

You posted your scheduled event.

At the request of our membership and Executive Board. Yes.

You posted your intent to charge 100% more for NACHI members outside of your area to attend you event than NACHI members who happen to belong to your chapter.

Based upon the vote of our Executive Board, Board of Review and membership. Yes.

I posted my objection to it. I find nothing in any of your subsequent posted attempts to justify this to be of merit or that I care to spend the time to personally discuss. I still think it is wrong.

That is your read. You do not work in a licensed state, nor are you required to take state licensed CE to retain you livelihood. I do understand your position. Do you understand mine? That is the purpose of discussion. I do not disagree with your position. I am, none the less, bound by the will and vote of the members that I serve as President. I hope you can understand this. I do not wish to "win you over: to my position, but I do value your ideas and opinion. That, among other things, is why I have been trying to contact you (via phone) for many weeks.

Chapters act autonomous of the national association. Accordingly, you are within your legal rights to commit this injustice...but it is still wrong.

Majority rule within a published set of rules and legal requirements are, sometimes, wrong. I agree. Injustice works both ways. What is your take on when the law requires one to act in ways that others consider to be unjust to others? As one of the Officers of a state Not-for-profit corporation, Chartered by NACHI national, I must act in this way. Please notice that the Illinois State Chapter is not (as far as I know) under these requirements. Hence, they charge the same price. I do not believe that, at this time, there are any members of the Illinois State Chapter or that it has any legal state status or requirements. I may be mistaken, but no one has informed my any differently.

I hope you will have a change of heart and do the right thing by giving all NACHI members access to NACHI funded resources at the same price...not because you have to, but because it is the right thing to do.

I agree with you as to the moral 'rightness' of your argument. I merely ask you to understand that, given the position I have (and its legal requirements), I cannot act any differently. MY heart is with your position, but my mind (and moral obligation, as well as legal position) must do what is required. Surely you are not asking me to violate the law? That would also be a violation of the NACHI rules.

If your chapter has costs, allow all NACHI members to share in them, equally.

How can I do this? What is the mechanism, the policy. How can I make NACHI national do this. Tell me, and I would be happy to do it. How can I make all the NACHI members in Illinois pay for this? Surely you don't want Russel Ray to chip in for our state approved and required CE education, do you. Why should the members in the (majority) states that do not require licensing or state CE licensing pay for those members in licensed states? I have offered the courses to anyone (per Joe F.) who wants them. Free. I have taught them in other states (free) and want to teach them on many more states (again, free), but am told, by NACHI authoritys that I cannot. When Joe F. teaches his wells course in your state, NACHI will be paying him (so I understand. If I am wrong, please correct me.). Following your logic, I should object to that. I do not. Who pays for these expenses in your Chapter? Please, let me know. Do you even have these same expenses? If you have a better way, I would also like to discuss this with you.

Call me.

Hope thisn helps;

[James H. Bushart]

Your argument, that being a licensed state somehow requires this inequity in the cover charge, is absurd.

I also note that the same class is being held in Belleville, IL which is more than 4 hours from Chicago - and there is still a 100% increase in admission fees for NACHI members who are not in your chapter. What in the PHIC is this all about?

Why don't you just rename your chapter "NA$HI", Will?

[jwortham1]

Why don't you just rename your chapter "NA$HI", Will?

Simple as this, you don't like it, don't come. Even our non-chapter education fee is much more than reasonable.

Back when our chapter was founded, we were operating hand to mouth. Expenses were more than income. We were BROKE.

We had two choices. Institute a chapter membership (which was approved by the powers that be at national) or fold the chapter and concede the field to A$HI.

Ok. So now we have a chapter membership. How do we convince people to join? Make it worth their time.

It was proposed and voted on, which is the proper way to make these decisions, to institute a higher fee for non-members to encourage them to join. (Even though we've waived the non-member fee for people traveling to training from out of the Chicago area)

It's this simple, you don't want to join, don't. But until you are funding the chapters functions, I also don't give a #$%# what you think about the prices NACHI-Chicago charges.

When NACHI-National is paying the freight, they can set whatever fees they like. When NACHI-Chicago is paying the freight, so can they.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by jwortham1

When NACHI-National is paying the freight, they can set whatever fees they like. When NACHI-Chicago is paying the freight, so can they.

They are paying. This program that is being provided is funded by NACHI. They provide your instructor, free. Learning materials, free. They pay his transportation and his hotel expenses. They advertise for you. None of it is paid by your chapter and the costs of the food, room, etc can be equally shared among NACHI members in attendance, as is done in every other chapter.

You are asking NACHI members who do not belong to your chapter to pay a "tax" to you to attend a NACHI program. This is wrong. Collect it from the non-members in attendance who do not belong to NACHI.

I will go as far as to say this...any provider of education that participates in your chapter's fund raising programs at the additional and inequitable expense of other NACHI members will not be invited to teach at any of my chapter meetings. I urge other chapters to do the same thing. This kind of crap needs to be nipped in the bud. If you guys need the money, have your wives sell candy to their co-workers or something.

[Greg Bell]

Jim,

I have one question for you. How would you feel if someone from Chicago wanted to tell you how to run your chapter? Please let the people who run their own chapter make their own rules for it. JMHO

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by gbell

Jim,

I have one question for you. How would you feel if someone from Chicago wanted to tell you how to run your chapter?

Greg,

No one can tell a chapter how to run it's own business. A chapter is autonomous and is an entity unto itself.

In this case, the Chicago Chapter is running itself as a business, for profit, and with NACHI support. Like any business, it is subject to the scrutiny of the market to which it is trying to sell.

I can express - in the same thread in which a chapter is advertising it's goods - an opinion regarding their way of doing business. I am part of the market that this chapter is soliciting to add funds to its coffer.

This chapter is putting an additional head tax on NACHI members (100% more than Chicago NACHI members) to attend a training program that NACHI National is footing the bill for. I think this is wrong and I choose to exercise my right to express it.

[pkelley]

one reason for charging non chapter members is to have them tie into their local chapter . and take advantage of allthe benefits it does have to offer.Another way to make it fair across the board is
#1 state that you are a NACHI member
#2 Belong to a local chapter to get the additional discount

Then funds collected could be distributed to the chapter to whom the belong , possibly a servicing fee to the initiating chapter .This is a possible way to work across the country, Equally

[cradan]

James, you're a Member, and as such, obviously entitled to expressing your opinion.

BUT....

Here's what you're really arguing-over, at least in terms of the "unfair head tax" being levied by the Chicago Chapter on poor, unsuspecting non-Chicago Chapter members:

Six (6) State-approved credits for Chapter Nachi members: $4.166/hour

Six (6) State-approved credits for non-Chapter Nachi members: $8.333/hour

Six (6) State-approved credits for non-Nachi members: $16.666/hour

Six (6) State-approved credits for most available education in the Northern Illinois area, by any variety of other (non-Nachi) providers: $30.00+/hour average, some are higher.

If the Chapter's business operations were fully paid-for by NACHI, I'd say you'd have a pretty strong argument regarding price parity. In reality, only a limited number of activities are subsidized by NACHI. Chapter members choose to pay dues, in part, to help bridge the financial gap that remains. Out of this voluntary contribution, and with the help of the active Chapter officers and members, some very tangible benefits accrue, most notably the availability of quality and timely education offerings at prices that any inspector would consider extremely reasonable given the alternatives. Even non-Nachi members (who add nothing to our Association and may be adding nothing to our industry) are able to enjoy this education offering at about half the going-rate.

Under the circumstances, and given the array of ongoing business and professional issues individual inspectors and our Association face, don't you think there are better hills to fight and die-upon???

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Greg,

No one can tell a chapter how to run it's own business. A chapter is autonomous and is an entity unto itself.

In this case, the Chicago Chapter is running itself as a business, for profit, and with NACHI support. Like any business, it is subject to the scrutiny of the market to which it is trying to sell.

Actually, Jim, our Chapter is a NACHI Chartered not-for-profit and incorporated as such in our state. We are not-for-profit and as such we must follow legal rules and regualtions. One of those is to not expend money without the membership voting on it.

I don't know if your chapter is incorporated, but you are speaking as it it were not. Therefore you do not have these legal and financial requirements to worry about.

Also, since you live 400 miles away, are we really in your market? We have had NACHI members (non-chapter members) who drove from your area to attend out courses and courses that our chapter set up with a local utility company and these people (from your market) were charged the same as Chapter members, out of voted on courtesy. Our courses were even offered to be taught near your area (at not charge to the local chapter and not paid for by NACHI. i.e., free) but our many offers were not take up.

Just trying to clarify.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by cradan

, only a limited number of activities are subsidized by NACHI.

...such as the course that NACHI is paying for that you are adding the "non-chapter member" head tax on.

That same course is being provided in various areas throughout the country through several chapters. Only yours charges the "non chapter member" head tax.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Our courses were even offered to be taught near your area (at not charge to the local chapter and not paid for by NACHI. i.e., free) but our many offers were not take up.

No interest in them, I suppose. Still isn't, as far as I can tell.

We are doing quite well utilizing the NACHI resources that are available to us and are able to provide them free to all NACHI members and $100 to non-members.

Last year, we had 6 CEUs (Illinois approved) Electrical Inspection training from Joe Tedesco - free to all NACHI members. We had 6 CEUs on Doors and Windows for Home Inspectors - free to all NACHI members. We also had 6 CEUs on Foundations for Home Inspectors - free to all NACHI members. Several folks from Illinois attended all three seminars - recognizing that NACHI's requirements for 24 CEUs per year far exceeded the 6 units per year required by your state.

Seeing as how you have two years to accumulate only 12 CEUs to satisfy your state, but still need 24 CEUs to satisfy NACHI requirements, your chapter better get on the stick and start providing more courses.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Actually, Jim, our Chapter is a NACHI Chartered not-for-profit and incorporated as such in our state. We are not-for-profit and as such we must follow legal rules and regualtions. One of those is to not expend money without the membership voting on it.

I don't know if your chapter is incorporated, but you are speaking as it it were not. Therefore you do not have these legal and financial requirements to worry about.

Also, since you live 400 miles away, are we really in your market? We have had NACHI members (non-chapter members) who drove from your area to attend out courses and courses that our chapter set up with a local utility company and these people (from your market) were charged the same as Chapter members, out of voted on courtesy. Our courses were even offered to be taught near your area (at not charge to the local chapter and not paid for by NACHI. i.e., free) but our many offers were not take up.

Just trying to clarify.

Nothing you wrote in this post even remotely relates to the issue of charging a head tax to NACHI members who do not belong to your chapter, Will, unless it is your point that these members outside of your chapter have a duty to finance you for some unusual reason.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

No interest in them, I suppose. Still isn't, as far as I can tell.

We are doing quite well utilizing the NACHI resources that are available to us and are able to provide them free to all NACHI members and $100 to non-members.

Here are some thoughts. They are not intended as criticism, but only to provide information as a contrast between the two areas.

Last year, we had 6 CEUs (Illinois approved) Electrical Inspection training from Joe Tedesco - free to all NACHI members. We had 6 CEUs on Doors and Windows for Home Inspectors - free to all NACHI members. We also had 6 CEUs on Foundations for Home Inspectors - free to all NACHI members. Several folks from Illinois attended all three seminars - recognizing that NACHI's requirements for 24 CEUs per year far exceeded the 6 units per year required by your state.

Joe's course is a good course, but you remember the problems we had with Illinois state approval at the time. With proper coordination and administration (which costs money that was not paid for by NACHI, if you remember) there would not have been these problems. Thankfully, they were cleared up by members of our Chapter.

I am sure that the other courses were also good, but one requirement is an association one and the other is a legal one. Very different animals, with very different costs.

Seeing as how you have two years to accumulate only 12 CEUs to satisfy your state, but still need 24 CEUs to satisfy NACHI requirements, your chapter better get on the stick and start providing more courses.

That state requirement is going up next year (to 18 hours per two year license term) so the need for licensed CE hours is also going up. Mr. Russ Myers, our Chapters founder recognized that real need, specific to Illinois inspectors and took up the challange. No one at our Chapter makes any money on these courses, we do it to serve. There are a number of inspectors in your area who need state approved CE and take the time to travel up here to take them and they are afforded the Chapter member cost. If you know of any others, just have them call me and I can help them out. If you will notice, the downstate presentation of Gerry's course has the same cost for Chapter and non-Chapter members. Our Chapter is helping to organize and register and coordinate and do that type of work and we are not charging non-Chapter members for it. Thus, your argument is somewhat moot. The differencial in price only applies to NACHI members in our area who are not Chapter members (and I will be beringing up your point to the membership for their consideration and possible change in voted policy).

As you state, NACHI has the highest CE requirements (and they just went up by 6 hours per year, per another post by Mr. Bowman!). We do provide this education. Our last meeting had teachers from the IBEW teaching on electric. That was open to any non-Chapter members at the same price, but I do not know of one who attended.

BTW: What about the NACHI membership requirement of members having to attend at least one Chapter meeting a year. I would submit that there are many NACHI members in our area who are deficient in this requirement. That is why we have a Chapter.

Hope this helps;