The age of oil dependance

[klott]

Yeah, it is ironic all right, double standards for sure. Most of it is about money, there is big money to be had in the Save the Whales and Spotted Owl movements. I remember when PITA had all of their meetings at Denny's, and most members had the Chopped Steak dinner specials! I would love to sneak into one of their meetings with a nice fat Rattle Snake, and drop it on the floor, just to see who killed it first! What a hoot that would be!

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by klott

Yeah, it is ironic all right, double standards for sure. Most of it is about money, there is big money to be had in the Save the Whales and Spotted Owl movements. I remember when PITA had all of their meetings at Denny's, and most members had the Chopped Steak dinner specials! I would love to sneak into one of their meetings with a nice fat Rattle Snake, and drop it on the floor, just to see who killed it first! What a hoot that would be!

Gotta love the biggest "green" hypocrites of all, the WWF. And I am not talking about that famous wrestling organization that had to change their name because the panda organization won a frivolous European suit against them.

[George A. H. Luck]

"W.W.F." ?
The Wilber Wright Foundation?

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Wind Power Exposed: The Renewable Energy Source is Expensive, Unreliable and Won’t Save Natural Gas.

This is not what President-elect Barack Obama's energy and climate strategists would want to hear. It would be anathema to Al Gore and other assorted luminaries touting renewable energy sources which in one giant swoop will save the world from the “tyranny” of fossil fuels and mitigate global warming.

And as if these were not big enough issues, oilman T. Boone Pickens’ grandiose plan for wind farms from Texas to Canada is supposed to bring about a replacement for the natural gas now used for power generation. That move will then lead to energy independence from foreign oil.

Too good to be true? Yes, and in fact it is a lot worse.

Wind has been the cornerstone of almost all environmentalist and social engineering proclamations for more than three decades and has accelerated to a crescendo the last few years in both the United States and the European Union.

But Europe, getting a head start, has had to cope with the reality borne by experience and it is a pretty ugly picture.
Independent reports have consistently revealed an industry plagued by high construction and maintenance costs, highly volatile reliability and a voracious appetite for taxpayer subsidies. Such is the economic strain on taxpayer funds being poured into wind power by Europe's early pioneers -- Denmark, Germany and Spain – that all have recently been forced to scale back their investments. more

Pollution is a taxpayer subsidy.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

Pollution is a taxpayer subsidy.

10 for form
3 for difficulty
1 for content.

[rbrady]

The following books have much better review ratings than: The Bottomless Well: The Twilight of Fuel, the Virtue of Waste, and Why We Will Never Run Out of Energy




Beyond Oil: The View from Hubbert's Peak by Kenneth S. Deffeyes
(46)$11.20



The End of Oil: On the Edge of a Perilous New W...


The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of Oil, C... by James Howard Kunstler (216)$11.20

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by rbrady

The following books have much better review ratings than: The Bottomless Well: The Twilight of Fuel, the Virtue of Waste, and Why We Will Never Run Out of Energy




Beyond Oil: The View from Hubbert's Peak by Kenneth S. Deffeyes
(46)$11.20



The End of Oil: On the Edge of a Perilous New W...


The Long Emergency: Surviving the End of Oil, C... by James Howard Kunstler (216)$11.20

They're all low priced reads, so I may very well pick them up to see what alternatives they have in mind. Who knows, perhaps they have the solutions to making alternative energies so that they are economically viable means of replacing dirty technologies ...

But it wouldn't suprise me if these books are based on "green" junk science ...

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by rbrady

The following books have much better review ratings than: The Bottomless Well: The Twilight of Fuel, the Virtue of Waste, and Why We Will Never Run Out of Energy

Read them all if you must but I don't know what a book's review rating has to do with the information it contains.

[klott]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Read them all if you must but I don't know what a book's review rating has to do with the information it contains.

It depends on if you are Hugging the tree, or sitting on your butt in the shade.

[dbucknavich]

Nick,

I think you need to get away from the "green wackos" you mention in every post. It makes you sound angry and blinded. There are people out there who want to help, and people who only want to benefit from that. I going to venture to say that there are more dirty hands in oil then renewable energy sources, but that's just me. Bottom line is my friend that we need to address our irresponsible usage of non-renewable fuels. Our planet needs us to.

To everyone else,
It doesn't matter if we have enough oil to last for 1000 years, the atmosphere can't handle that much usage. Call global warming a myth, but the facts are there. We have accelerated the greenhouse effect in a relatively short time, like it or not.

Yes, renewable energy sources are expensive, because of a small demand. Only a large demand will bring down prices, but only low prices will increase demand. That is the big problem in my opinion.

I don't have to look any farther than where I live. The "Brown Cloud" gives us great sunsets, but is visible no matter where you are.

I think another problem starts at home. Here in Phoenix, drive around at 1pm in August and see how many windows face west, with no shading or overhangs. But its ok, because we just slap on enough mechanical cooling to carry the difference. That is needless dependency. Now look at large commercial buildings, even worse. Until we get environmentally responsible with our buildings, we are fooling ourselves and being hypocritical. We are talking about our planet, it is the only one we have.

So bring on the reds. I haven't posted here in a long time and likely may not again, because I find the board mostly useless now, nothing but a pi**ing contest, with no regards to who we affiliate with, and how we look to the outside real estate business. Our political and religious beliefs are talked about more than our inspection techniques. Not so much listening anymore, but simply waiting for your chance to spew. But to hear fellow earthlings dismiss any thought of attempting to be environmentally responsible disgusts me. Because of money? For crying out loud, we live here. We spent 20 billion or so on a particle accelerator that failed, why? One last thing- I never heard of a solar spill, or a wind spill. Exxon still hasn't paid that tab.

Farewell, who's coming with me?

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by dbucknavich

To everyone else,
It doesn't matter if we have enough oil to last for 1000 years, the atmosphere can't handle that much usage. Call global warming a myth, but the facts are there. We have accelerated the greenhouse effect in a relatively short time, like it or not.

The "facts" are not there. The myth of global warming is built entirely on computer modeling that has been unable to predict the know past when run in reverse. CO2 is a trace gas in our atmosphere and is not the main reason for any perceived "global warming". It is this gas of life and makes great plant food. You need to read more than the MSM and those that benefit from global warming research funding.

Yes, renewable energy sources are expensive, because of a small demand. Only a large demand will bring down prices, but only low prices will increase demand. That is the big problem in my opinion.

Small demand? Energy needs are increasing.
They are expensive because they cannot supply our needs. Build all the solar you want but you must also build transmission lines to get it to the grid adding to the massive costs/kW. They require massive amounts of land to produce a kilowatt compared to any other method. And even then they do not produce energy when the sun doesn't shine and the winds don't blow necessitating the need for back up generation facilities that add even more to the cost per kW

I don't have to look any farther than where I live. The "Brown Cloud" gives us great sunsets, but is visible no matter where you are.

You mean green CA does not have sufficient pollution control measures?

I think another problem starts at home. Here in Phoenix, drive around at 1pm in August and see how many windows face west, with no shading or overhangs. But its ok, because we just slap on enough mechanical cooling to carry the difference. That is needless dependency. Now look at large commercial buildings, even worse. Until we get environmentally responsible with our buildings, we are fooling ourselves and being hypocritical. We are talking about our planet, it is the only one we have.

Efficient building design is a great goal but conservation is only part of the big picture

The long and short of it that we should demand serious cost benefit analysis before signing on to any "green" project.

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by dbucknavich

Nick,

I think you need to get away from the "green wackos" you mention in every post.
Its hard to escape the green wackos when their antics are highlighted daily by the media of that nearby socialist republic known as Madison, Wisconsin.

It makes you sound angry and blinded. There are people out there who want to help, and people who only want to benefit from that.
Yes, there are those that want a "green" planet and there are those who know how to make a quick buck of those good-intentioned people.

I going to venture to say that there are more dirty hands in oil then renewable energy sources, but that's just me.
I agree but why is that relevant?

Bottom line is my friend that we need to address our irresponsible usage of non-renewable fuels. Our planet needs us to.
Which is why we should develop truly sustainable alternatives to fossil fuels, instead of kidding ourselves into thinking that government subsidies and mandates are going to make our current lot of "green" feasible.

To everyone else,
It doesn't matter if we have enough oil to last for 1000 years, the atmosphere can't handle that much usage. Call global warming a myth, but the facts are there. We have accelerated the greenhouse effect in a relatively short time, like it or not.
Do you have any empirical evidence to back this statement up?

Yes, renewable energy sources are expensive, because of a small demand. Only a large demand will bring down prices, but only low prices will increase demand. That is the big problem in my opinion.
Once again, any credible sources to back up such a bold statement would be appreciated. I'm all ears to any proposals that would cover all the bases on "green's" current shortcomings in providing economical, reliable energy to the entire grid.

I don't have to look any farther than where I live. The "Brown Cloud" gives us great sunsets, but is visible no matter where you are.
It seems pretty futile for us to get rid of all our smog while China and the rest of the smog king countries continue to use the atmosphere as one big chimney.

I think another problem starts at home. Here in Phoenix, drive around at 1pm in August and see how many windows face west, with no shading or overhangs. But its ok, because we just slap on enough mechanical cooling to carry the difference. That is needless dependency. Now look at large commercial buildings, even worse. Until we get environmentally responsible with our buildings, we are fooling ourselves and being hypocritical. We are talking about our planet, it is the only one we have.
And how do we go about mandating environmental responsibility?

But to hear fellow earthlings dismiss any thought of attempting to be environmentally responsible disgusts me. Because of money?
Yeah, I dismiss the "green" campaign because it would cost money and might even do some good for the planet. Yep, I hate the planet.

I object to the "green" movement because I see it as nothing more than an attempt to sucker those with enviro-guilt into buying products and energies which are otherwise not viable. We need to pour billions of dollars into developing viable energies, not kid ourselves into mandating and heavily subsidizing the failing ones we are currently presented with.

For crying out loud, we live here. We spent 20 billion or so on a particle accelerator that failed, why? One last thing- I never heard of a solar spill, or a wind spill. Exxon still hasn't paid that tab.

Farewell, who's coming with me?

Not me.

[Michael Larson]

Peak Oil Cultists Get it Wrong Again and Again

The price of oil returns to 'normal'
Terence Corcoran, Financial Post Thursday, December 11, 2008


As the world price of crude oil soared up toward $150 a barrel earlier this year, even some of the most stalwart defenders of the ability of man to keep oil flowing began to lose faith. Despite the long history of oil's downward price drift over most of the past 140 years, the idea that this time was different became almost a new law of the world energy markets: Oil had reached it's peak, the world was running out, the fundamentals of market forces were at work, the price must soar and the result would be economic turmoil.


As it turns out, the opposite has happened. Oil traded at $43.72 yesterday. Philip Verleger, of the Haskayne School of Business in Calgary, said yesterday that oil could go to $20 a barrel as the economic slowdown drags on through the next year or more. Price recovery could take few years, before oil returns to "normal" levels.


The question now is:What's normal?


Back in June, 2006, Prof. Smil wrote a commentary for FP Comment dismissing the peak oil crowd as a "new catastrophist cult." In 2000, he warned in a science journal that the experience of long-range forecasting, especially in energy, had been dismal. He predicted more. "There will be no end to naive, and ... incredibly short-sighted or outright ridiculous, predictions

[rbibler]

OK My 2 cents... 1. I think global warming is a myth... I have yet to see the facts. We have Al Gore with his movie but no facts... Its short of the fact... Looks nice... very well done but there are just as many in the known that pick his movie apart. Al Gore has an agenda... along with just about every person that in on the side of environmentalist. They we say we are going to run out of OIL... OIL Is a renewable energy. It comes from the earth and the earth keeps making the stuff... We will never run out. No one has any Idea how munch we have. just that we can not find it all. the more we look the more we find...

I believe its the environmentalist that will not let our people produce our own OIL to meet our own needs this is social engineering has not one thing to do with the environment. This has more to do with Control of the people and stopping Capitalism.

# 10 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.

It all get to this very point "covet"... I have something and you don't
want me to have it... ( My freedom to produce )

So they TAX IT. They regulate it. They take it away.

What ever happened to the 55 Chev with a Big block 454 and a 4 speed.

This past election has set things in line for the environmentalist to have there way. I saw Al Gore and Obama on TV the other day... Obama stated that the time has come to get off foreign OIL. But he offers no plan. The electric CAR Is not going to work. We just don"t have the batteries that will do the job. And he wants to shut down the coal plants. sorry thats where we get over 50% of our electric today...

We will see. I am for anything that will be good for our Country and each and every one of you. I support you and i hope the best for you and your's the Christmas.

I hope i have not offended any one that was not what i wanted to do in this post.

Best

Ron