Even Cnn is reporting...

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by mlarson

The Vietnam reference is to the politicians and many people loosing their will and insisting on the pullout of troops before victory was complete. Sound familiar?

No doubt will is in decline. Yes, the "media" plays the biggest role in this and that is a disgrace. Then there are those hypocritical neo-hippies driving $50k gas guzzlers, drinking plastic wasting bottled water and live in oversized homes who ejaculate over "fighting for peace". But I imagine there are many like me who lost confidence in the current "plan" due to a lack of indications of progress and a very questionable administration that promotes it. If I had indications of progress, perhaps my perception would change.

You mention a "feasible" plan. What would you do?

Either rule the country with an iron fist, as that seems to be the only feasible means of a stable government in the region, or fully withdrawl within a narrow timeline giving the Iraqis the ultimatium of cleaning up their own house or facing endless airstrikes until such is acheived. As evident with Palestine and Gaza, the middle eastern muslims simply do not accept the concept of freedom. As evident with Saddam and all the current corrupt regimes, they accept oppression.

[James H. Bushart]

I don't know if I am a liberal or a conservative, anymore. I find myself rapidly bored by many of the discussions like these...where everyone has to be placed in a box and play a certain role expected by the box they choose to speak from.

But I do know this.

I know that whenever a person dies as a result of government action...whether it is a cop that shoots a man in the act of a crime or a soldier that dies in battle...our media has a duty to question it. And they should question it hard and refuse to accept rhetorical sound bites in place of real answers.

Many don't agree with me, but it is as essential for a free society to have a free press to hold the leadership accountable for their actions as it is to hold elections.

There is certainly bias in the press, which is why only a fool would accept his news from only one source.

The greatest modern day president, Ronald Reagan, was in office when one of the first terrorist attacks took the lives of over 80 U.S. Marines in Beirut. A very liberal media took him to task and held him personably accountable for every single life that was lost in a mission that appeared to have no value.

He did not duck his responsibility. Instead, as the coffins arrived at an Air Force base in Deleware to be taken by the surviving families, President Reagan was there to meet them. He gave a eulogy for the families and, against the advice of his political insiders, he stayed and met with every single grieving mother, father, wife and child who showed up and did not leave until he had the opportunity to hear from each one.

He hugged them, wept with them, and listened to them and I have no doubt that he heard from a few mothers that day. But it comes with the job. If you are man enough to send a boy to his death...you better be able to take the heat from his survivors and from the press and from anyone else who you are accountable to.

Reagan went back to Washington D.C. and, after review, determined that "peace keeping" was not a good mission for our armed forces...and we left Beirut to others to "police".

I was still on active duty when that happened. I can tell you that it is that kind of a leader that men will fight for and never question. I was there (but not in Beirut), and I know.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by nwagner

But I imagine there are many like me who lost confidence in the current "plan" due to a lack of indications of progress and a very questionable administration that promotes it. If I had indications of progress, perhaps my perception would change.

Trouble is, we seldom hear of our real sucesses in Iraq so I wonder if we really know what is happening there. This administration has done a lousy job of communicating our goals and setting reasonable expectations with the American public. My chief irritation is with those who do nothing but complain and offer no better way than get out. I would remind all that we are still in Germany, Korea, Japan, and some 700 other bases scattered around th e world some 50+ years after hostilities ceased. This is a long haul operation and we should not be surprised by that.

Originally Posted by nwagner

Either rule the country with an iron fist, as that seems to be the only feasible means of a stable government in the region, or fully withdrawl within a narrow timeline giving the Iraqis the ultimatium of cleaning up their own house or facing endless airstrikes until such is acheived.

Isn't that what dictators do?
What targets would be appropriate?

Originally Posted by nwagner

As evident with Palestine and Gaza, the middle eastern muslims simply do not accept the concept of freedom. As evident with Saddam and all the current corrupt regimes, they accept oppression.

You have forgotten Turkey. People with choose freedom when they come to understand it is a real possibility. Why else do people from all over the world desire to emigrate to the U.S.A.?

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I don't know if I am a liberal or a conservative, anymore. I find myself rapidly bored by many of the discussions like these...where everyone has to be placed in a box and play a certain role expected by the box they choose to speak from.

I ask myself that question too James. The distinctions have become blurred. I do think we should always error on the side of freedom.

Originally Posted by jbushart

I know that whenever a person dies as a result of government action...whether it is a cop that shoots a man in the act of a crime or a soldier that dies in battle...our media has a duty to question it. And they should question it hard and refuse to accept rhetorical sound bites in place of real answers.

Fair enough. The media gives us little else than sound bites perhaps because we want everything now and refuse to take the time to understand an issue well enough to make wise informed choices.

Originally Posted by jbushart

Many don't agree with me, but it is as essential for a free society to have a free press to hold the leadership accountable for their actions as it is to hold elections.

Absolutely but all political leaders need to be held to the same level of accountability.

Originally Posted by jbushart

There is certainly bias in the press, which is why only a fool would accept his news from only one source.

No kidding. You have to work a little harder to find out what is really going on.

Originally Posted by jbushart

The greatest modern day president, Ronald Reagan, was in office when one of the first terrorist attacks took the lives of over 80 U.S. Marines in Beirut. A very liberal media took him to task and held him personally accountable for every single life that was lost in a mission that appeared to have no value. He did not duck his responsibility. Instead, as the coffins arrived at an Air Force base in Deleware to be taken by the surviving families, President Reagan was there to meet them. He gave a eulogy for the families and, against the advice of his political insiders, he stayed and met with every single grieving mother, father, wife and child who showed up and did not leave until he had the opportunity to hear from each one. He hugged them, wept with them, and listened to them and I have no doubt that he heard from a few mothers that day. But it comes with the job. If you are man enough to send a boy to his death...you better be able to take the heat from his survivors and from the press and from anyone else who you are accountable to.

He was indeed a class act.

Originally Posted by jbushart

Reagan went back to Washington D.C. and, after review, determined that "peace keeping" was not a good mission for our armed forces...and we left Beirut to others to "police".

Peace keeping alone is not sufficient motivation to put American lives as risk.

Originally Posted by jbushart

I was still on active duty when that happened. I can tell you that it is that kind of a leader that men will fight for and never question. I was there (but not in Beirut), and I know.

Contrast that with the morale of the military during the years preceding and following the Reagan era.

[nwagner]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Trouble is, we seldom hear of our real sucesses in Iraq so I wonder if we really know what is happening there. This administration has done a lousy job of communicating our goals and setting reasonable expectations with the American public.

Exactly! I do not hold out the prospect of progress or even success but I just do not see it with this "Stay the Course" mantra. Its time we get hard facts, straight answers and clear expectations.

My chief irritation is with those who do nothing but complain and offer no better way than get out.

It is the new American way to simply complain about things instead of taking action. Gouging oil companies, gouging health insurers, crooked politicians, etc all just get complained about. Doing something other than participating in meaningless protests is almost unpatriotic.

I would remind all that we are still in Germany, Korea, Japan, and some 700 other bases scattered around th e world some 50+ years after hostilities ceased. This is a long haul operation and we should not be surprised by that.

We are still there because of the strategic military bases we built. That and we are insuring the nutty Northerns don't drive their tanks across the world's most armed border.

Isn't that what dictators do?

Yep.

What targets would be appropriate?

Infrastructure.

You have forgotten Turkey. People with choose freedom when they come to understand it is a real possibility. Why else do people from all over the world desire to emigrate to the U.S.A.?

I am sure the middle east muslims would, if we could end the secular brainwashing by the clerics. I have no idea how that would happen.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by nwagner

Exactly! I do not hold out the prospect of progress or even success but I just do not see it with this "Stay the Course" mantra. Its time we get hard facts, straight answers and clear expectations.
It is the new American way to simply complain about things instead of taking action.

We must win(whatever that means) once we commit.

Originally Posted by nwagner

Gouging oil companies, gouging health insurers, crooked politicians, etc all just get complained about. Doing something other than participating in meaningless protests is almost unpatriotic.

High oil prices have less to do with oil companies than idiot politicians(a discussion for another day)

Originally Posted by nwagner

We are still there because of the strategic military bases we built. That and we are insuring the nutty Northerns don't drive their tanks across the world's most armed border.

It will probably end up the same way in Iraq

Originally Posted by nwagner

Infrastructure.

Al Qaeda is doing a pretty good job of messing that up. We must deal with them to make any headway. The decision was made to prosecute a surgically precise war to preserve th e infrastructure. If we had gone after it, it would take even longer to get Iraq on it's own feet.

Originally Posted by nwagner

I am sure the middle east muslims would, if we could end the secular brainwashing by the clerics. I have no idea how that would happen.

I'm stillwaiting for all those moderate Muslim clerics to speak out.

[James H. Bushart]

No one who is not in uniform in direct face-to-face contact with the enemy has the right to use the word "we" when discussing these matters, gentlemen.

Please refrain from using the word "we", until such time you share the risk with those who are in harms way. The word "they" would be much more appropriate for message board debates such as these.

Thanks.

[Michael Larson]

James, when I use we it is the context of the American citizens.
Ultimatley it is we who make the decisions by the election of representives who are supposed to legislate and act with wisdom on our behalf.

This in no way is intended to diminish the real sacrifice of those who serve in the military in any capacity. We all own them a huge debt of gratitude for defending this country and our lives. The military is an extension of our culture and values. Our military is without equal and can accomplish the task it is given. It is the politicians that find a way to mess it up.

James, I personally thank you for your service to this country. You stepped up and deserve honor.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by mlarson

James, when I use we it is the context of the American citizens.
Ultimatley it is we who make the decisions by the election of representives who are supposed to legislate and act with wisdom on our behalf.

This in no way is intended to diminish the real sacrifice of those who serve in the military in any capacity. We all own them a huge debt of gratitude for defending this country and our lives. The military is an extension of our culture and values. Our military is without equal and can accomplish the task it is given. It is the politicians that find a way to mess it up.

James, I personally thank you for your service to this country. You stepped up and deserve honor.

I know your intentions are honorable.

But "we" are not in Afghanistan, surrounded by mountains filled with people who are committed to remove our heads as we sleep, and honestly believe that they will immediately be rewarded by God should they die in the act of trying.

"We" are not watching and listening to the screams of our fellow soldiers as they burn to death inside of vehicles that run over bombs.

"We" do not know the whole story, the real truth, behind the news headlines.

"We" are not struggling in a VA hospital to try to learn how to use a spoon to eat oatmeal with our two remaining fingers through seared lips.

I can tell you that when these people hear the "bar talk" and listen to people shouting "we outta do this" and "we oughtta do that"....it offends them - at least those I have spoken to.


Here is what "we" can do. We can pray for our young soldiers and those who lead them.

We can trust that their generals and their president are privy to facts and information that we are not...and probably never will be...and that the decisions that are being made by military leaders are in the best interest of the mission that has been assigned to them by the president. We can trust that the president will represent the interests of the American people in defining that mission and that he will be replaced if he fails.

This is what our soldiers think and feel and we are truly "we", with them, when we do the same.

[Michael Larson]

James,

I appreciate your perscpective.

But as an US citizen my right of free speech and opinion is not limited to only to areas that I have a more personal knowledge. I am sickened when ever I hear a soldier comment on how the real story in Iraq and Afganistan is not being told stateside. Then to hear some of our politicians minimize their accomplishments it makes it even worse.

When I meet a vet I thank him for his service. To do less would dishonor him/her.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by mlarson

James,

I appreciate your perscpective.

But as an US citizen my right of free speech and opinion is not limited to only to areas that I have a more personal knowledge. I am sickened when ever I hear a soldier comment on how the real story in Iraq and Afganistan is not being told stateside. Then to hear some of our politicians minimize their accomplishments it makes it even worse.

When I meet a vet I thank him for his service. To do less would dishonor him/her.

...and every man and woman in uniform, today, is banking on their belief that you represent the majority of Americans, and are extremely grateful.

Strategizing and second-guessing is for football games being replayed on a Monday afternoon.

Always remember....and trust in your heart as the soldiers do....that their generals know the real facts and leak to the media what they want the enemy to know.

Soldiers are taught early in their training to ignore everything "unofficial". It is good advice for all of us.

Understand...as they do...that what you see, read and hear is distorted and so will be the conclusions drawn from these things.

[Michael Larson]

Well said James.

Too many people do not understand the art of warfare.(I am certainly no expert)
They listen to the sound bites with little understanding or thought that things are not as they are being told. The same politicians that voted for America's involvement now seek advantage by encouraging anti war sentiments and this is most dispicable.
This is not a conquering nation that seeks more territory.
That alone sets us apart from others who seek power over others.

[klott]

I talk to a lot of vets who served and are serving over there, and what they say is much different than what the media is saying. Those are my source for the truth, not the media or politicians.

[Randy D. Stufflebeem]

If by chance we start getting better reports on the War on Terror you can bet your ***** the main street media and some of the politicians will start spinning the politcal climate over there as being unfixable. Its so very sad!
Randy

[David A. Andersen]

Living in the neighborhood of the 101st Airborne Division, I'll relate the "word on the street"; because we are "there:" doing what we're doing, they aren't "here" pulling off another 9-11.

Ever wonder why it's been so quiet here for so long?

How soon we forget!

No one wants to be over there.
My old Army buddy moved back here recently. Two of his sons have been blown up three times and are still over there! I guarantee he doesnt want his kids over there. But they would rather be there with a gun in hand than sitting in some NY tower.