Instead of blowing up Iraq

[A Dan Leleika]

Originally Posted by wdecker

There is nothing that better serves the troops than supporting the mission that they were given. What some waht to do is 'bug out', which does not help the troops.

BTW: All the troops are volunteers, know what the signed up for and want to do it.

You are completely wrong in this statement..or should I say ..as a proud veteran myself I completely disagree with your statement. I served in the military and did my time proudly, but that did not mean that I was completely brainwashed not to have opinions of my own or blindly agree with the administration because its the "Patriotic" thing to do.

There are soldiers over in Iraq that are victims of back door drafting and are having to return for a second and third tour and being recalled against there will (meaning, they aren't a volunteer anymore). We had a family member who had to leave last week for his third recall, after he was honorably discharged and did his time. He went, even though he does not agree nor wants to go. He has been there and does not agree that we need to be there. That is his opinion. I don't know, I haven't been to Iraq first hand.

Just because someone doesn't support a war does not mean they don't support the troops or the proud soldiers that are there. They just don't agree with the Management of the war or administration.

Thats all I will say on this matter. Peter's thread seems to have been redirected (as most threads do).

Keep up the good work Peter.

[rhumphries]

Originally Posted by prussell

My counterpoint is this.

You are correct about the intelligence, but there was no proof that WND existed. My opinion was we should have stayed out.

That said, I was in favor of going all the way to Baghdad in the gulf war.

There was twenty years of video showing So-damn-insane (Saddam) inspecting his cache of WMDs. There were plenty of videos showing a portion of the thousands of people he gassed. There were videos showing how his henchmen pushed blindfolded and cuffed victims off the roofs of buildings. There was recent video of stores of raw chemicals used to make gas weapons.

Nonetheless, I think we all forget the "Weapon of Mass Destruction" wasn't bombs, missiles or chemicals in Iraq. The true WMD was the army that used them and their willingness to use them again should they get the opportunity. Just because you take the army's capability away temporarily, you cannot be so naive as to think that you've actually destroyed their desire or intent to use them again should they have motive and opportunity. Scuds don't kill people. People kill people, and the Iraqi army was far too willing to please their dictator if for nothing more than to keep him from black-bagging their own families in the middle of the night.

Did we have a right to invade Iraq a second time? Yes. He violated the UN resolution on many occassions and the consequences of such violations were spelled-out in the resolution and its underlying orders.

People make comments like, "Saddam hated terrorists and terrorists feared him, therefore we should have left him in power." Once again, those same people forgot that Saddam WAS a terrorist. He just worked within borders. We are not fighting a person in Iraq. We are fighting a 2,000 year-old way of life that has been imposed on its people through thuggie tactics and intimidation. All that the average Iraqi citizen wants is to have what we have - to eat everyday, hold a steady job, and celebrate holidays without fearing that they'll lose a spouse, parent or child that day from some exploding extremist.

Over 73 million people died as a result of WWII. Of those, the U.S. lost 418,500 lives. If that's what it took for us to keep our sons and daughters from having to say "Heil Hitler" while singing to the Nazi national anthem each morning in school, then those losses were acceptable. Any WWII soldier will tell you the same. The U.S. has lost 3,504 soldiers in Iraq to-date according to the DoD. Have we all lost our resolve so quickly that we shouldn't act to stop tyrany until we position ourselves to lose another 400,000+ freedom-loving citizens after such tyrany has spread?

Yes, we pick and choose our fights. No, we cannot help everyone. And if this Iraq war is a war to control oil as was the last, then sobeit. Not having control of oil would cripple this country to the point of being inoperable in the event of another war. And tell me that if Saddam won control of Kuwait that he wouldn't align himself with N. Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Venezuela, and perhaps France and Russia to weaken the U.S./Canadian and Euro-Asian economies as he escalated the development of arms for World War.

If anything, our presence in Iraq shows our willingness to fight - that we will not be f***** with. Let the tree huggers and politicians whine as they remember the 2,752 dead from September 11. Personally, I don't care where the terrorists on that day came from. Extremist are all motiviated by the same belief system. I'm personally not in the mood to watch my seven year-old daughter's guts spatter all over some grocery store wall because some depressed kid with no sense of self-worth is looking for an excuse to commit suicide in the name of a God he has never seen or met - or $25,000.

I choose to protect my freedom today so I don't have to regret not having done it tomorrow. Nobody brainwashed me. I didn't gritch or moan for having to do the job asked of me by my Commander-In-Chief. I would have gone back over and over again not because I support war (because I don't), but because it was in my contract with the citizens of the United States.

-R-

___

Operation Desert Storm
SSgt. U.S. Army
1988 to 1991 Active Duty
1991 to 1996 Reserves
29th Training Regiment
1/7th Mechanized Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division

Advance Infantry Training
Expert/Combat Infantry Badge
Ranger Qualified (non-BN assignment)
Sniper Qualified
Air Assault Qualified
Bradley Qualified (11M School)
TOW Missile Gunner
Dragon Gunner
Schutzensner German Weapons Qualified

Made heroes out of 11 Republican Guards. Personally took 2 bullets (one per arm).


Thanks to all veterans, past and present who served and serve honorably. You may have hated "doing the deed", but you kept your word to the citizens of your country and did it anyway.

__

[jbreazeale]

"In times of war, the first casualty is truth." (James Reston)

None of us hold a monopoly on the elusive commodity of truth. In fact, it is one of the most difficult things to attain in any measure. We who opine here can only speak our views, gained from whatever truth we are able to gather, or whatever part of truth we are able or willing to accept. War continues to be the all-to-common method mankind reverts to in solving disputes. One can not ignore insane dictators such as a Hitler, but he managed to hijack a great nation with the resources and technology to wage war against several other great nations simultaneously for years. Saddam Hussein, though of like mind, did not command such resources. As a matter of fact, as (Retired) General Shashkavilli (sic?) stated "We had him contained on the cheap." I imagine that sentiment is the main reason for his retirement. The fact that Saddam felt the need to fire the occasional missile at our planes was akin to a fly on a horse's ***. Had he not "donated" 5 grand to the families of "slain" Palestinian "martyrs", Iran and Hezbollah would have, and still do.
My point here, if there is or can be a point with any finality, is that that unfortunate section of the world is mired in a kind of societal insanity that is best left played out by the players themselves, lest they drag us all into a conflict like the world has never seen. There are too many factors at play, and at the bottom of it all you will always find the infernal, seemingly eternal Arab/Israeli Conflict. Believe me, that is what drives the Muslim extremists, and support for Israel is the primary reason that they hate us so bad, and there is nothing in the nature of social change that we can affect in that region and further eastward because of it. I am not saying that we should withdraw support for Israel. We really have no choice in that matter. But Ronald Reagan way back in '82 knew when it was time to get out of town, so to speak, and George's daddy understood the implications of creating a power vacuum in that part of the world. I suspect that is the real reason he stopped the show back in '91. I just wish he had been able to explain it all to Jr.

I would like to recommend two books about the Arab/Israeli Conflict, which lies at the root of all that is happening today:

"A Concise History of the Arab-Israeli Conflict", by Ian J. Bickerton and Carla L. Klausner (Prentice Hall, Englewood Cliffs, N.J., 1995) ISBN 0-13-292038-7

"Arab and Jew: Wounded Spirits in a Promised Land", by David K. Shipler, (Penguin Books, N.Y., 1986) ISBN 0 14 01.03767

I believe these two books will give you a different insight into current events in the region. I can not help but believe that if George or any of his cohorts had read them, we would not have taken the present course.

[dhelm]

I didn't read this whole thread since the whole issue gets me riled up. Good people can disagree, and truth, as Jimmy stated is at best, illusive. I think George senior probably did talk with george junior, but as all rebellious teenagers do, junior just had to do it his way. Actually, I think they went into the whitehouse with a plan, and carried it out.

[jbreazeale]

Could be, but as the goat said, it's a BAAAAAADD plan, and we will pay dearly for it.

[Michael Larson]

Jimmy,

Let me ask you a simple question.

If the Israel and the Jews were gone tommorrow would the extremists hate us ay less?

[Greg Bell]

Will,

Please explain your comment about the money being put to good use in Iraq. I haven't seen anything good come out of Iraq. All I see is our infrastructure here getting worse and worse.

[Greg Bell]

I agree with you David. I think they knew what they wanted to do before moving into the white house.

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by gbell

Will,

Please explain your comment about the money being put to good use in Iraq. I haven't seen anything good come out of Iraq. All I see is our infrastructure here getting worse and worse.

Good point Greg, this is what I started the thread for.

[Michael Larson]

I think very few are happy with the current situation in Iraq but please let's not forget that at the time there was very wide spread support for our actions there.

IMO we have no good choices left.

If we stay we lose more good men and women in country that may not be ready for freedom.

If we go we will be perceived as weak and become even more the target of those who stand against the American idea of freedom.

[Greg Bell]

There is no doubt that this is a touchy subject. I would hope that the powers that be will not get us into another war without having the will to win it. You cannot fight a war and be politically correct. To win a war you have to be willing to do what ever it takes. Since WWII we have been the superpower because we did what needed to be done then. Do you think the current leaders could have dropped the bomb on Japan? That is why we have been the superpower for the last 50 plus years. Everything that has happened since ( Korea, Vietnam and Iraq) has just proven to the world that we no longer have the will to do what needs to be done to win a war. We will always be viewed as a weakling as long as we coddle our enemies instead of killing them.

[jwortham1]

But, in reality, it would just have been siphoned off into corruption, like the $450 Mill that 'just disappeared' in New Orleans.

C'mon Will.

You don't think Halliburton, Kellogg, Brown and Root and a horde of other no-bid contractors are lining their pockets?

I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

[jbreazeale]

Yeah, follow the money.

To answer the question asked above: Read the books, then ask me.
I have found that 90% of Americans have a pathetically poor understanding of the root problems of the Middle East conflict in general, and unfortunately our current administration is in that percentage. Understanding a culture is the first step. It is clear to me that a gross misunderstanding is driving this whole thing. History has proven that societies forced into sudden and drastic changes will always react negatively to the ideas and ideals being thrust upon them, no matter how noble or sensible they may seem to those doing them "the favor". I'd write more now, but I have a full day ahead. See y'all tonight...have a great day, everyone!

[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by rhumphries

There was twenty years of video showing So-damn-insane (Saddam) inspecting his cache of WMDs. There were plenty of videos showing a portion of the thousands of people he gassed. There were videos showing how his henchmen pushed blindfolded and cuffed victims off the roofs of buildings. There was recent video of stores of raw chemicals used to make gas weapons.

Nonetheless, I think we all forget the "Weapon of Mass Destruction" wasn't bombs, missiles or chemicals in Iraq. The true WMD was the army that used them and their willingness to use them again should they get the opportunity. Just because you take the army's capability away temporarily, you cannot be so naive as to think that you've actually destroyed their desire or intent to use them again should they have motive and opportunity. Scuds don't kill people. People kill people, and the Iraqi army was far too willing to please their dictator if for nothing more than to keep him from black-bagging their own families in the middle of the night.

Did we have a right to invade Iraq a second time? Yes. He violated the UN resolution on many occassions and the consequences of such violations were spelled-out in the resolution and its underlying orders.

People make comments like, "Saddam hated terrorists and terrorists feared him, therefore we should have left him in power." Once again, those same people forgot that Saddam WAS a terrorist. He just worked within borders. We are not fighting a person in Iraq. We are fighting a 2,000 year-old way of life that has been imposed on its people through thuggie tactics and intimidation. All that the average Iraqi citizen wants is to have what we have - to eat everyday, hold a steady job, and celebrate holidays without fearing that they'll lose a spouse, parent or child that day from some exploding extremist.

Over 73 million people died as a result of WWII. Of those, the U.S. lost 418,500 lives. If that's what it took for us to keep our sons and daughters from having to say "Heil Hitler" while singing to the Nazi national anthem each morning in school, then those losses were acceptable. Any WWII soldier will tell you the same. The U.S. has lost 3,504 soldiers in Iraq to-date according to the DoD. Have we all lost our resolve so quickly that we shouldn't act to stop tyrany until we position ourselves to lose another 400,000+ freedom-loving citizens after such tyrany has spread?

Yes, we pick and choose our fights. No, we cannot help everyone. And if this Iraq war is a war to control oil as was the last, then sobeit. Not having control of oil would cripple this country to the point of being inoperable in the event of another war. And tell me that if Saddam won control of Kuwait that he wouldn't align himself with N. Korea, China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, Venezuela, and perhaps France and Russia to weaken the U.S./Canadian and Euro-Asian economies as he escalated the development of arms for World War.

If anything, our presence in Iraq shows our willingness to fight - that we will not be f***** with. Let the tree huggers and politicians whine as they remember the 2,752 dead from September 11. Personally, I don't care where the terrorists on that day came from. Extremist are all motiviated by the same belief system. I'm personally not in the mood to watch my seven year-old daughter's guts spatter all over some grocery store wall because some depressed kid with no sense of self-worth is looking for an excuse to commit suicide in the name of a God he has never seen or met - or $25,000.

I choose to protect my freedom today so I don't have to regret not having done it tomorrow. Nobody brainwashed me. I didn't gritch or moan for having to do the job asked of me by my Commander-In-Chief. I would have gone back over and over again not because I support war (because I don't), but because it was in my contract with the citizens of the United States.

-R-

___

Operation Desert Storm
SSgt. U.S. Army
1988 to 1991 Active Duty
1991 to 1996 Reserves
29th Training Regiment
1/7th Mechanized Infantry, 3rd Infantry Division

Advance Infantry Training
Expert/Combat Infantry Badge
Ranger Qualified (non-BN assignment)
Sniper Qualified
Air Assault Qualified
Bradley Qualified (11M School)
TOW Missile Gunner
Dragon Gunner
Schutzensner German Weapons Qualified

Made heroes out of 11 Republican Guards. Personally took 2 bullets (one per arm).


Thanks to all veterans, past and present who served and serve honorably. You may have hated "doing the deed", but you kept your word to the citizens of your country and did it anyway.

__

Robert, Thanks for your input. I don't believe I started this thread to start an argument about patriotism, I started it to bring about the awareness of what needs to be done at home, here in the US.

Right now the US government is bribing troops to serve in Iraq and it should end and the money we waste over there could be better spent here i the US, help US families that need it.

[Peter C. Russell]

Robert, I have re-read your statement and you scare me.

To talk about your seven year old daughter in those terms is unspeakable.
IMHO

To brag about making hero's that's unspeakable as well, to brag about taking bullets.......

I don't know what to say.