NACHI attorney warning!!!

[wsiegel]

James,

I respectfully disagree with you.

Attorney: What qualifications do you hold to perform a home inspection.

ME: I am a member of NACHI.

Attorney: Are you not also a licensed engineer in the state of ----

ME: Yes I am.

Attorney: As a home inspector, can you explain why you did not report this (structural) problem.

ME: It was not visible during the insepction and according to our SOP we do not report items we can not see.

Attorney: As an engineer, if you were called out to inspect this property, can you tell us what your finding would be.

YOUR attorney: I object. He was not hired as an engineer.

Attorney: Your honor, the witness has estblilshed himself as an expert as an engineer.

Jugde: Over ruled. I will allow.

Now where do you go. If this is a jury trial, you just hung yourself out to dry.

As a side note, if I was an engineer, I would be sure to charging extra for my credentials.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

James,

I respectfully disagree with you.

Attorney: What qualifications do you hold to perform a home inspection.

ME: I am a member of NACHI.

Attorney: Are you not also a licensed engineer in the state of ----

ME: Yes I am.

Attorney: As a home inspector, can you explain why you did not report this (structural) problem.

ME: Yes, I can. The client hired me as a home inspector to inspect in accordance with my NACHI SOP, which I did. Had he contracted me as an engineer, my procedures would have varied - significantly - as well as my fee. That is why I do not include my engineering background in my advertising, so as not to confuse the two.

You see, Mr. Attorney, I have many other skills - as well as being an engineer - that I did not apply. None of them were advertised...and none of them were paid for.

Next question?

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

Attorney: As an engineer, if you were called out to inspect this property, can you tell us what your finding would be.

ME: No problem, I cannot give you an answer.

Attorney: You are refusing to answer?

ME: I'm under oath to give the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and "guessing as an engineer" is just the same as lying. We do not guess, we test, probe, and then we evaluate. Since I was not paid for any engineering services, I have not done any engineering testing, any engineering probing, or any engineering evaluations. So I won't lie and guess at your answer.

Tom: Would this fly?

[wsiegel]

And where do you think a jury will hold you responsible at this point?

I really dont want to get into a pissing match on this one. I really believe that you will be held to your highest liscense when everything is said and done. And even if your are not, think of the expense to defend yourself.

[Richard L. Bennett]

Children are held to a different standard that adults

rlb

[Joe Farsetta]

Greg,

This is not a conspiracy by me, Nick, or Mark Cohen. It is factual, and based on case law in the US.

We live in the most litigious society in the world. Everyone is looking for a free ride. Buyer beware is a thing of the past.

As such, slimebuckets look for ways to punish those who are trying to do a good job, and trying to make a living. These are the same people who blame everyone but themselves for their woes and for the poor choices they make.

I have been harping on havng "special knowledge" for years. It is something that all inspectors should be aware of.

Did I say that knowledge of the building code is a bad thing? No I didnt.

[Doug Edwards, CMI]

I started to post something on this thread last night but decided to wait.
When I was on active duty in the military at several points I was involved in what they referred to as "high risk" training. The number one concern and something that was stressed at every single training meeting and department head meeting was...SOP. The SOP is there for two reasons. (1) it protects the student by presenting, in writing, what the expectations of training facility were toward the student. It was the level of competence (enabling and terminal objectives)in order to graduate. (2) It provided the essential guidelines for the instructors and staff for proper applications of training. IN other words, it provided "boundaries" that could not, would not ever be exceeded or breached. I personally fired numerous instructors who failed to follow SOP. One infraction resulted in termination of their status as an instructor. SOPs are for the protection of ALL who are involved.
I routinely hear inspectors brag about exceeding the SOP and I cringe when I do. Anyone is free to do whatever they want, but in an neverending effort to protray their business as superior to the next guy, they open themselves up for incredible scrutiny if they ever find themselves in front of a judge, review board or a family they have mislead. I do not believe anyone is saying having the knowledge is BAD, but trying too hard to use it as a leveraging tool at the risk of falling on their own sword could be detrimental to their business and the profession in general. Raising the bar internally is good, but once someone exceeds an SOP the "bar" becomes arbitrary. The borders or boundaries have at least been blurred or completely removed. Someone else said using expensive, diagnostic tools and devices could open one up as well. I agree. I have many of these tools that I bought over the years and have learned not to use them as a routine part of the inspection. I never "troubleshoot" as that is outside the scope of an inspection. Using normal operating controls and making the equipment operate normally is all the buyers are typically going to do. Once I know the equipment is faulty, my job is done. Too many inspectors are going beyond that, giving their "opinions" as the problem or cause. That too is moving the proverbial lines or bar and gives the general public the impression that home inspections are more than what it really is.
There are going to be those that will jump now to the conclusion that what we are saying is "do the minimum and nothing more". Nothing could be further from the truth. This is a very large continuum, there is middle ground but that is exactly what the SOP establishes.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Well said Doug I hope many read this twice .
It looks to me that most often it is the older experienced Home inspector who push the SOP and frequently the newer Home Inspector who thinks they should exceed the SOP.
Thanks again . Roy Cooke

[jmichalski]

Still no link to any court case.....just hyperbole and hypotheticals.

[Doug Edwards, CMI]

Actually, I do have court cases involved around the SOP I am referring to, only it isn't regarding Home inspections. There was a case of a young man drowning at Rescue Swimmer School in 1987. Every single instructor and staffer that was courtmartialed the thing that got them was they all exceeded the SOP. They did not have a leg to stand on when the evidence was presented in court once it was determined they had done so. It was basically open and shut. The GAO investigators were up our behinds for several years after the incident, constantly returning to the Schools to check and see if the SOP was being adhered to. I ended up going there right after it happened as part of a clean sweep and review process. Several people ended up in jail, discharged and careers ended. All for failing to follow SOP. Do what you like but don't ever say you weren't warned. That is only one incidence of where I have seen people's lives dramatically changed forever for failing to follow the simple rules of procedure.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by dedwards

That is only one incidence of where I have seen people's lives dramatically changed forever for failing to follow the simple rules of procedure.

Exactly.

Some folks refer to "exceeding" an SOP when there is, in fact, no such thing. There is "adhering to" an SOP and there is "deviating from" an SOP. If you consistently employ a measure not contained in an existing SOP, you have simply created a different SOP and would be prudent to describe it as such, IMO.

[Joe Farsetta]

Doug,

Excellent post.

[Doug Edwards, CMI]

Thank you. Interestingly, myself and two very experienced and senior HI were discussing this very topic yesterday afternoon. One element of our discussion is the current trends of "outside forces" being allowed to determine SOPs, acceptable credentials, levels of competence, etc. The slow encrochment upon the HI industry by people unfamiliar with what a HI is or does is everywhere. They are deciding for us what a HI should be, and do much to the detriment of the business. Unfortunately, we have many willing accomplises within our ranks.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I agree with the statment Mr. Cohen has said.........however lets not confuse the difference in LEARNING the CODE aspects to broaden the knowledge versus spitting out CODE in a physical sense.

Adults should be at a point in life they can LEARN something without putting it in reports or otherwise. The learning or obtaining ICC Education is just that...additional education.

As a Electrician....Do I really need to know Electrical Theory to do my JOB....heck no......If you have wired one house you have wired a hundred as it is not brain surgery.......but a CHOICE is made to learn more for self obtaining worth.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

I agree with the statment Mr. Cohen has said.........however lets not confuse the difference in LEARNING the CODE aspects to broaden the knowledge versus spitting out CODE in a physical sense.

Adults should be at a point in life they can LEARN something without putting it in reports or otherwise. The learning or obtaining ICC Education is just that...additional education.

As a Electrician....Do I really need to know Electrical Theory to do my JOB....heck no......If you have wired one house you have wired a hundred as it is not brain surgery.......but a CHOICE is made to learn more for self obtaining worth.

Learning is great but not using your knowledge properly is looking for trouble .
Those who have been in the Inspection much longer the I set up the SOP.
Following it can help keep us out of trouble .
Not following it can sure make it harder to stay out of trouble .
If you look you will see all good Home inspection associations and all good suppliers of reporting systems use a very similar SOP and I thing it is the only way to go .
Roy Cooke