NACHI, CMI, Questions to membership

[jcundiff]

Okay- so I was really excited when I read the news about the CMI in the recent IQ. I was actually sitting at the computer looking at the ashi web site. Yep- I'm about to do what I never thought I would, join ashi. I had read the proposed Ohio laws creating a home inspector's license, test, 250 inspection minimum blah, blah, blah... It was as if they copy and pasted ASHI req's right into Ohio Revised Code. Anyway- its obvious to me that ASHI has set the bench mark for rigorous membership requirments. There are many real estate brokers that will only display lit. from ASHI inspectors. For those states that do not test, ASHI has seemed to slipped right into the political pocket, thus assuring themselves a seat at the table, probably at the head of the table.

NACHI is great for its organization cheerleading, education, the web site is awesome, etc... Its a great place for inspectors to hang there hat. But- is membership really a substantial accreditation? A real testiment to an inspector's raw ability?

Qualifying and inspector is no doubt as complex as a proper inspection. I've been at it for 23 years. I still miss things. There are still answers I struggle to find. Meanwhile, "no eperience necessary" Be-an-inspector-today schools are turning out "inspectors" by the score. ****, you can tell who they are by their posts in the message board. There is no doubt about it- the industry is being dumbed down. If we agree on that point, I have just a couple questions of the membership:

Does ASHI represent the viewpoint of the majority of Home Inspectors, and should they be left as the sole provider of a substantial accreditation for our instustry?

Should NACHI become a true Accrediting Agency whereby we develop a meaningful methodology to qualifying inspectors?

Should rigorous requirements be placed on those members who strive to hold such a title?

Should a real test be applied to such requirements?

Should NACHI stay the hell away from accreditations and focus on being a Inspector's hang out, market place, and lobbying group?

Oh yeah... one last thing, for those who feel the CMI is exclussionary, it doesnt seem to be a problem with the ICC. Check out ICC's definition of a Master Code Proffessional- "The MCP is the highest level of certification that is attainable through ICC's certification program. Only a select number of individuals have achieved this level, 634 nationally. Are you up for the challenge?" I doubt the guys who are happy with being an ICC Buiding Inspector are all sour grapes because there of the 634 deserving guys attained a higher accreditation.

Cheers

[jmichalski]

What substantial accreditation does ASHI provide except membership? To my knowledge the most substantial accreditation is provided by the State in states where licensig is required. In these areas, no one really cares about your assosciation affiliation - they want to know if you are licensed.

Passing the NHIE can be done by anyone.
Getting ICC Certified can be done by anyone.

If you are concerned about your level of certification, seek more education on your own and improve yourself.

Everyone should stop worrying about what everyone else is doing and stick to their own business at hand. Pick any number you wnat to achieve whatever initialed designation you choose to create. It's just arbitrary and means nothing more than having produced numbers. Scoring on a test means you retained enough information to pass a test. Neither makes you a good inspector.

ASHI should stand alone in segregating their membership. Initials and Certifications are all about either A) Ego, B) Marketing, or C) Both.

No one can help you with answer A, but you.
Answer B would lead to marketing that woud equate the uncertified NACHI inspectors as unqualified and clueless, or a risky choice for consumers. In the end, it would be an artificial designation created for egos and marketing, that would significantly hurt the business of new inspectors. (It is these new inspectors, by the way, that drive NACHI's membership numbers and produce the revenue that drives the NACHI machine.)

Impacting someone's bottom line for the hollow glory of some initials is not what NACHI is (or should be about). We reach out, help each other, educate and learn from each other. Let others follow our model.

[William J. Decker]

John;

The solution to the 'ASHI only' problem with Realtors is education. I have kept it up with a few such Realtors in my area.

I meet them, talk to them and educate them. No one gave me any business, but I kept talking to them and told them, "If you ever have a question of a problem, give me a call and I willhelp, even if you don't refer me." They called and I helped them (question about Why FPE panels are bad, I sent them the literature, etc).

Finally, one broker who was really in with ASHI inspectors called me and asked if I could fill in for one of them in a presentation to her Realtors. Bang, I was there. I presented "top 10 defects" and they were floored. I actually showed them the defects and answered their questions and told them what to do when defects were found and how an experienced inspector can actually help with the sale (without hurting, in fact helping, the client).

The Broker came up to me and asked, "Why, when we don't refer you." I replied, "I just want to do the best job I can, help the client and uplift the industry." Two weeks later, I got a referral from her (her regular ASHI guy wasn't available). I did a good inspection, took my time, educated the client AND educated her. Client agreed (in writing) for her to also get a copy of the report. She called me about an hour after I sent the report (e-mail, hard copy to follow) and was floored. "This is the most complete, thorough and understandable report I have ever seen!", she said. I replied, "Thank you for saying so."

She replied, "You did this special for me, right?" I replied, "No, I always do it special for every one of my clients. How else should I do it."

I don't get every one of her inspections, or even the majority, But I get some. You can be darn sure that I do everty one as well.

No more 'ASHI only' in that agency.

Nick ain't perfect. Neither is NACHI. Neither am I.

But, together, each and every mother's son (and daughter) of us, we can (and will) get better each and every day.

John, you have your business and your needs and your profession. What you do with them is your business, as it should be.

But I, for one, would rather sink or swim with all my other NACHI brothers and sisters.

Hope this helps.

[jcundiff]

The intent of my post was not to bellyache about ashi, nor to examine the broad philosophical questions of psycometric examinations. My point about testing is this, and I come from and Ohio point of view: The state is going to adopt standards- most likey modeled after ashi. I've done my stint in politics and I know a dead horse when I see one. As stated before, some of the big real estate brokers (prudential being one of them) requires ashi membership. What I see me having to do is join ashi. It can be my shameful little secret. When asked, I'll say "yes... here's my f'ing ashi brand.... but missy realtor... let me tell you about NACHI...."

Like I said earlier, I was excited for a moment, thinking that NACHI's CMI would compete in application with ashi's brand. My personal opinion now, however, is that this might not be in keeping with the (perceived) spirit of NACHI. Thats the difference in NACHI and ashi. Although ashi contains the word society in its name, they certainly have possitioned themselfs in an acreditation organization role. While I hate that they are the group that have done so successfully, it dawns on me now, that I dont think NACHI is the right group to challange them. I think we should put every bit of energy into getting all states into fair and substantial testing. I think once that occures, ashi will drown in under the weight of their own ego. NACHI will no doubt emerge as the premier organization that inspectors WANT to belong to, and not NEED to belong to. Imagine...

[jmichalski]

well said, John.

Incidentally, I think it would bear pointing out that requiring membership is one org (as opposed to meeting certain standards) is probably illegal. Modeled after ASHI is fine ,they can set the bar where ever they like. But requiring membership goes too far.

Maybe consult Joe Ferry, on the legal thread unless you don't want to be a maverick and would rather go along to get along.

[jcundiff]

Nooooo.. I'm not the maverick type. Besides- I'm pretty much a newbie here. You're probably all thinkin "where the hell did this guy come from". I'm just trying to make sense of all the rantings I'm reading on the subject of CMI. I come with an open mind.... 'cept of course when it comes to code questions

[jmichalski]

Originally Posted by jcundiff

Nooooo.. I'm not the maverick type. Besides- I'm pretty much a newbie here. You're probably all thinkin "where the hell did this guy come from". I'm just trying to make sense of all the rantings I'm reading on the subject of CMI. I come with an open mind.... 'cept of course when it comes to code questions

But that's the real beauty of NACHI, John, is that even relative newbies can voice an opinion and add to the discussion and educatioon of the rest of the community. Heck, some new guys even have expertise in specialist fields (elec, structure, etc) and add more than some of the vets!

I am one of the more vocal CMI opponents you may find, but that is because I feel so strongly about the core idea of what NACHI is (at least as I have come to know it).

The reason I joined originally is that it seemed that NACHI wanted me and wouldn't stigmatize me because I was new. Apparantly I am not the only one, as people have voted with their feet and flocked to the NACHI way of doing things (look at our membership numbers in recent months!)

I don't think it is wise to change that.

It is also why you will see me constantly rail about a Strategic Organizational Plan, so that we have - in wiritng - a mission statement, a concrete identity, and a formal plan that cannot be changed on a whim (or suddenly) because we registered a domain name, or created a new logo, or someone had a new idea.

[Joseph Burkeson, CMI]

Originally Posted by jmichalski

well said, John.

Incidentally, I think it would bear pointing out that requiring membership is one org (as opposed to meeting certain standards) is probably illegal. Modeled after ASHI is fine ,they can set the bar where ever they like. But requiring membership goes too far.

I can assure that ASHI would NEVER seek legislation requiring membership in their organization as a prerequisite for licensing. Furthermore, ASHI would do whatever possible to dissuade legislators from making such a gross mistake.

Not only is it a bad idea, but the real fact is its totally unnecessary. As long as NACHI holds fast to the notion that passing its non-proctored, open-book on line quiz is adequate for certifying home inspectors, ASHI will continue to win the hearts and minds of legislators who write licensing laws.

[jmichalski]

Joe,

I was referring to Realtor or other entities that require membership in a specific organization.

I personally don't care what AHSI or ther orgs do legislatively.

Having spent nearly a decade on the inside of politics, I can tell you without a doubt that the only thing that captures the hearts and minds of legislators is checks to the campaign fund.

Oh, and perhaps a mass mailing (at least 100-250 registered voters) to their office (from their district - those outside the district get bucked to other offices without ever reaching the Rep. or Sen's desk). But unless they all hand-written (postcards and astro-turf campaigns only generate form letters in response) and identify a single issue as vital, then they are not effective at all.

I see no constituent groundswell for legislation one way or another, so - in the case of HI legislation - see first postulate: follow the $$.

[Joe Farsetta]

Joe B,

Here in NY, the legislators listened to NACHI because we had no agenda. ASHI-sponsored legislation, and lobbiests didnt go as far as two country bumpkins. And by the way, they recognized the NACHI, unproctored, online "quiz" for grandfathering.

So much for ASHI winning the hearts and minds of legislators.

[Joseph Burkeson, CMI]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Joe B,

Here in NY, the legislators listened to NACHI because we had no agenda. ASHI-sponsored legislation, and lobbiests didnt go as far as two country bumpkins. And by the way, they recognized the NACHI, unproctored, online "quiz" for grandfathering.

So much for ASHI winning the hearts and minds of legislators.

How long will it be before NY realizes they were sold a bill of goods, that the NACHI quiz is meaningless relative to competency and when they finally come to their senses where will NACHI's standing then be?

Do you honestly believe the NACHI test will survive the strict scrutiny it will face when the NY legislators find out NACHI played them? I expect that both NACHI and its members who rely on the NACHI test as an icon of competency will one day be rousted from their slumber. You can rest assured those reliable sound organizations who produce valid, proctored exams and promote them in the marketplace will not stand by and allow this travesty to continue.

Now is not the time to rest on your laurels, as there will be an onslaught by the NHIE, ICC and other respectable organizations that will make it their quest to educate the NY legislators to their mistake, expect it now and plan for the worse.

[William J. Decker]

As the NACHI membership rules clearly state, all state requirements for licensing, certification, etc. must be met.

I don't believe that NACHI uses their test as a substitute for any state requirements.

BTW: The NACHI exam IS proctored in states that require proctoring.

Pretty much blows your whole argument, doesn't it?

[jmichalski]

Originally Posted by jburkeson

organizations who produce valid, proctored exams and promote them in the marketplace

Ah, now I see. Of course. It's all about the money.

[Joe Farsetta]

Joe,

Once again you're talking out of your ... well, I'll leave that to everyone's imagination.

NY has rejected the NHIE for licensing. They recognized NACHI, NHIE, and NAHI CRI up until Jan 1st, 2006, after which time, the State's test replaces all. The State exam tests minimum competency of inspectors. They continue to reject the advice of any inspectors from any organization with an agenda.

As to being sold a bill of goods, we sold them nothing. We never mentioned NACHI, other than to offer them a database full of validated questions. Our members took some folks from the Dept of State on live inspections. We never spoke to anyone interms of NACHI. This is why we were invited back again and again.

The legislators knew the score. They still do. The Department of State also knows the score, as does the Governor.

For someone who seems to dislike this org, and has for some time, one would simply wonder why you stick around. Surely you have outgrown this playground... no? Your posts seem to indicate so, as does your rhetoricabout a day of reconing.

You insult the legislature of NY, its Governor, and its Department of State. You insult every NY NACHI member. And worst of all, you know absolutely nothing of what you speak. The HI Advisory serves the Secretary of State. Its charter is advisory only. I can attend all of their meetings, and can rebut or challenge every recommendation they make. Additionally, they are comprised of 3 inspectors and 3 non inspectors. If the deck is stacked, they will be in for some trouble. The system was intentionally set up that way, after the disaster that was NJ HI licensing.

As to ICC, speak to an attorney if they believe an inspector is at higher risk being ICC certified, and advertising as such.

[Joseph Burkeson, CMI]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Joe,

Once again you're talking out of your ... well, I'll leave that to everyone's imagination.

NY has rejected the NHIE for licensing. They recognized NACHI, NHIE, and NAHI CRI up until Jan 1st, 2006, after which time, the State's test replaces all. The State exam tests minimum competency of inspectors. They continue to reject the advice of any inspectors from any organization with an agenda.

As to being sold a bill of goods, we sold them nothing. We never mentioned NACHI, other than to offer them a database full of validated questions. Our members took some folks from the Dept of State on live inspections. We never spoke to anyone interms of NACHI. This is why we were invited back again and again.

The legislators knew the score. They still do. The Department of State also knows the score, as does the Governor.

For someone who seems to dislike this org, and has for some time, one would simply wonder why you stick around. Surely you have outgrown this playground... no? Your posts seem to indicate so, as does your rhetoricabout a day of reconing.

You insult the legislature of NY, its Governor, and its Department of State. You insult every NY NACHI member. And worst of all, you know absolutely nothing of what you speak. The HI Advisory serves the Secretary of State. Its charter is advisory only. I can attend all of their meetings, and can rebut or challenge every recommendation they make. Additionally, they are comprised of 3 inspectors and 3 non inspectors. If the deck is stacked, they will be in for some trouble. The system was intentionally set up that way, after the disaster that was NJ HI licensing.

As to ICC, speak to an attorney if they believe an inspector is at higher risk being ICC certified, and advertising as such.

Bookmarked for a future crow eating event. It is a shame that I only insulted every NY NACHI member I was hoping to insult EVERY NACHI member who stands on the NACHI test as the criteria of their so called certification, I'll need to do better next time.