No Main Disconnect

[Dennis McAuley]

Good topic. All posts on this are good, but let's not forget that, if needed, all breakers can be turned off in six swipes or less with your hand.

Since it is a high rise, the AHJ may state that all service disconnects are in one location for reasons that Rick states.

Finally, discussions on inspection topics with no underhanded remarks. Off to an inspection.

[relliott]

Originally Posted by pbolliger

Mike

The panel has one MAJOR defect.. NO legend!! I am surprised no one pointed that out.. No professional would leave that puppy unlabeled for branch circuit layout .

As for the "main" in this "distribution panel" your going to see the various configurations /types all over the place in Chicago. This is not uncommon but personally I would prefer to see one (main). Call it out... but be prepare to get ripped into. I have seen many and even had Union contractors slam me for it. It follows two different paths of concern. One occupant safety, the other electrical equipment protection. Guess which one this falls under? Your looking at client safety.. "them guys who installed it say you da wrong pal".. AFCI ain't required... We don't installed thems....

As for the closet down the hall. Very common also. Does the building have an engineer on site. Then they are the person responsible for access. Is the building a mega high rise or a three unit condo. Different configuration?

At the next chapter meeting I will have a challenge for you on Chicago electrical installations..

Tough guy ehh
wo wo wo

How in the heck are we supposed t see the labels at the angle.

[Patrick Bolliger]

Yous better behav'e ther, Cuz wes gonna takes you out.. Ands I don't means to dinner!!

[Michael J. Merino]

Originally Posted by pbolliger

Mike

The panel has one MAJOR defect.. NO legend!! I am surprised no one pointed that out.. No professional would leave that puppy unlabeled for branch circuit layout .

As for the "main" in this "distribution panel" your going to see the various configurations /types all over the place in Chicago. This is not uncommon but personally I would prefer to see one (main). Call it out... but be prepare to get ripped into. I have seen many and even had Union contractors slam me for it. It follows two different paths of concern. One occupant safety, the other electrical equipment protection. Guess which one this falls under? Your looking at client safety.. "them guys who installed it say you da wrong pal".. AFCI ain't required... We don't installed thems....

As for the closet down the hall. Very common also. Does the building have an engineer on site. Then they are the person responsible for access. Is the building a mega high rise or a three unit condo. Different configuration?

At the next chapter meeting I will have a challenge for you on Chicago electrical installations..

There is a legend, it is on the door of the panel cover. The building is 60 floors, I bet they have an engineer, but the client did not know. The agent was on vacation, and the association did not appear to be very helpful to my client. The inspection was done at 6:30pm, I assume they did not want to put in any extra time. The condo was downtown at the Millenium building and the unit is a foreclosure.

I agree that their should be some type of shut off in the units and recommended they consult an electrician about that issue and about having AFCI installed in the Bedrooms. Safety first.

I explain and have in my reports the following statement "It is important that you understand that all comments of conditions, observations and recommendations are my opinions. Comments in the report are based on my interpretation of the various industry standards and practices. Throughout the report, all comments and notes are to be considered as starting with the phrase... "In my opinion". Be aware that others may disagree or have a different perspective than mine. Not all home inspectors or tradesmen agree on defects, installation methods, seriousness or other considerations."

[Patrick Bolliger]

I all comes down to $$. Adding breakers will add to the bottom line. Right?
"If it ain't in da code books then we don't need em"

Chicago is working on there interpretation of the NEC 1999 so don't expect many rapid improvement such as AFCI's too. "The city that Werks"


Here is an important paragraph related to main breakers. It comes directly from my NEC 1999 binder under

" 230-72 Grouping of Disconnects

(c) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service disconnect means.


Exception: In a multiple-occupancy building where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the service disconnecting means supplying more then one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible to authorized management personnel only. "


So as you read it. You can see how this installation is "acceptable" in your case.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by mmerino

...
I explain and have in my reports the following statement "It is important that you understand that all comments of conditions, observations and recommendations are my opinions. Comments in the report are based on my interpretation of the various industry standards and practices. Throughout the report, all comments and notes are to be considered as starting with the phrase... "In my opinion". Be aware that others may disagree or have a different perspective than mine. Not all home inspectors or tradesmen agree on defects, installation methods, seriousness or other considerations."

That's an amazing disclaimer. That's fantastic. It's not everyday I move close to the screen and read every word of something that someone wrote. Wow. Really good.

Michael, May I share this with everyone?

[Michael J. Merino]

Share away. But I must give credit to the Bellman Group.

[Michael J. Merino]

Originally Posted by pbolliger

I all comes down to $$. Adding breakers will add to the bottom line. Right?
"If it ain't in da code books then we don't need em"

Chicago is working on there interpretation of the NEC 1999 so don't expect many rapid improvement such as AFCI's too. "The city that Werks"


Here is an important paragraph related to main breakers. It comes directly from my NEC 1999 binder under

" 230-72 Grouping of Disconnects

(c) Access to Occupants. In a multiple-occupancy building, each occupant shall have access to the occupant's service disconnect means.


Exception: In a multiple-occupancy building where electric service and electrical maintenance are provided by the building management and where these are under continuous building management supervision, the service disconnecting means supplying more then one occupancy shall be permitted to be accessible to authorized management personnel only. "


So as you read it. You can see how this installation is "acceptable" in your case.

Pat, I know it is acceptable. I am just letting the client know what "my opinion" is. If it was me or my family, I would want a disconnect in the unit. I think it is worth consulting an electrician to evaluate and give a cost estimate-even if it costs them some money for the estimate. I do not see why an electrician would not perform the work (provided it can be done) if the client is willing to pay. I think saying that it is not needed by code is a poor excuse. Code is a minimum standard, I go by best practice and safety. Report your opinion and let the client decide.

[relliott]

Originally Posted by mmerino

Share away. But I must give credit to the Bellman Group.

You just love FOG Mike
Fact
Opinion
Guidance
That is Bellman crede and Chuck B used to stop by before we scared him off.

I think the ASHI guys musta teased him too much

[Michael J. Merino]

I do love FOG. But, think about it. Most of us do it without thinking about it. For those that do not know, FOG is Fact Opinion Guidance. Fact=defect, Opinion=why you think it is a defect, Guidance=what can be done about it. You tell your client about a defect and they ask you "why is it a defect?" and you answer them. They almost always ask, "How do you fix that?", and you answer them. You are practicing FOG.

Many of you have alluded to the fact that HI's are "Generalists"; like a physician. I have a medical background, 20 years performing heart caths and angioplasties, stents and much more. You guys are right. As a medical professional we practice FOG. Fact=diagnosis(you have some blocked arteries), Opinion=prognosis(what the blockage can lead to), Guidance=your options as a patient, and the patient decides(at least for now they do).

If you are not practicing FOG, then you are doing a diservice to your clients, yourself, and the industry.

Chuck and Corey are good guys, I like them both. They have a ton of experience, that I can learn from. I believe both have been recognized as expert witnesses by the courts. Chuck has helped me more than just teaching the HI course I took; advice about business, clients, the industry in general. It is too bad he is not on here more.

[William J. Decker]

Panel looks OK to me. Distribution panel and no bonding of ground and neutral. No main disconnect required because of the 6 hand throw rule, but I do like to see a supplimentry disconnect in the unit.

I also call out lack of AFCI, but I also explain, verbally, to the client that since all wiring in the Chicago area is in EMT, the causes of Arc faults don't happen a whole heck of a lot.

Hope this helps;

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by dmcauley

Since it is a high rise, the AHJ may state that all service disconnects are in one location for reasons that Rick states.

Finally, discussions on inspection topics with no underhanded remarks. Off to an inspection.

Yes, but would G-d or Allah (take your pick) or Obama or Bush or the evil Neo-Cons or ROn Paul allow it? WHat is their agenda? The darn unions are always messing things up. Then there is the North Korean influence on the local building dept.

Sorry, I just had to thow that in

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by mmerino

I go by best practice and safety.

Neither of which would warrant a shutoff in this panel.

[Michael J. Merino]

Originally Posted by jpope

Neither of which would warrant a shutoff in this panel.

Sure it does, it is my opinion that it would be the best practice and safer. And my client is paying me for my opinion.

[William E. Siegel]

bump to Jeffs last post