No Main Disconnect

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by rmaday

So, if it is my opinion that a house who's interior walls are painted green with pink polka-dots is safer than blue painted walls, should that go into my report?

Or perhaps ceramic tile in a bathroom should be called out - I know that they are awfully slippery for wet feet.

Thanks for sharing.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

Thanks for sharing.

Anytime.

Point is that there has to be some basis of fact to call something out.

added*** anyone have verbiage for slipery tile.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by rmaday

Anytime.

Point is that there has to be some basis of fact to call something out.

added*** anyone have verbiage for slipery tile.

I do.

Narrative:
Bathroom:
Floor:
Slippery Tile Concern:
People who have difficulty walking or maintaining balance or who use crutches, canes, or walkers, and those with restricted gaits are particularly sensitive to slipping and tripping hazards. For such people, a stable, non-slip and regular surface is necessary for safe walking, particularly in the bathroom. It is in my opinion that this bathroom tile floor may be too slippery for my client. I recommend having a professional inspect the tile further and determine if there is a proper non-slip surface existing at the bathroom tile floor. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommends that walking surfaces have a static coefficient of friction of 0.5.

The point is that my report is written in my opinion. And I write the report (in part) based upon addressing the concerns and needs of my client - especially when it comes to safety. That's the point Michael was making in Post #1. If I feel that something could be safer or more convenient for my client, then I will write the report (in my opinion) to the end of expressing that.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

I do.

Narrative:
Bathroom:
Floor:
Slippery Tile Concern:
People who have difficulty walking or maintaining balance or who use crutches, canes, or walkers, and those with restricted gaits are particularly sensitive to slipping and tripping hazards. For such people, a stable, non-slip and regular surface is necessary for safe walking, particularly in the bathroom. It is in my opinion that this bathroom tile floor may be too slippery for my client. I recommend having a professional inspect the tile further and determine if there is a proper non-slip surface existing at the bathroom tile floor. The Occupational Safety and Health Administration recommends that walking surfaces have a static coefficient of friction of 0.5.

Thanks, Ben.

Your opinion, though, is based (again) on fact (in red)

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by rmaday

Thanks, Ben.

Your opinion, though, is based (again) on fact (in red)

Nope.
Read the narrative that you requested again. Slower this time.
It is written in my opinion that the floor is slippery. OSHA did not inspect the bathroom. The OSHA sentence has nothing to do with my client and a slippery tile floor. Read it again.

The tile floor may not even be actually slippery. Ha. The fact that the tile floor is slippery has not been established. The tile floor may be found to be completely safe and non-slip. There are no factuals! Just my opinion.

p.s. I like yellow highlight, not red text color.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

Nope.
Read the narrative that you requested again. Slower this time.
It is written in my opinion that the floor is slippery. OSHA did not inspect the bathroom. The OSHA sentence has nothing to do with my client and a slippery tile floor. Read it again.

The tile floor may not even be actually slippery. Ha. The fact that the tile floor is slippery has not been established. The tile floor may be found to be completely safe and non-slip. There are no factuals! Just my opinion.

p.s. I like yellow highlight, not red text color.

Sure there are facts.

You are not just making everything up.

Fact - there is a tile floor.
Fact - tile can become slippery
Fact - OSHA has even quantified it

Your opinion was that it may be too slipery for your client.

All of our opinions are based on something, facts, experiences, etc. They cannot simply be based on nothing, lest they put us in a white jacket and take us away.

BTW - I could not find how to use Yellow highlight on this MB. Perhaps Chris can get this for us.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by rmaday

All of our opinions are based on something, facts, experiences, etc. They cannot simply be based on nothing, lest they put us in a white jacket and take us away.

You said, "All of our opinions are based on something..."
I agree with you.
Our reports are written in our opinions.
I agree with you. Good point.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

You said, "All of our opinions are based on something..."
I agree with you.
Our reports are written in our opinions.
I agree with you. Good point.

I'm glad you agree that our opinions have a basis in fact.

Thank you.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

I recommend having a professional inspect the tile further and determine if there is a proper non-slip surface existing at the bathroom tile floor.

Absurd. . .

[Michael Larson]

3M Safety-Walk Tub and Shower Safety Strips RPI


MCO 08216

[dmcauley]

Much has been stated on this post about opinions, safety, inferring something, etc. Good statements by all. Let's go from a different angle.

What would a court of law state? Courts use fact or a reasonable facsimile of it, including testing procedures, statutes, expert witness, etc during the proceedings. If the topic of this post is brought up in court, (for some unknown reason, playing devils advocate here), and the judge or whoever asks what reference is there to the added shut-off for this type of panel. What is the correct answer according to common practice? Answer, the main shut-off in the closet is the correct answer, according to best practices and an authorized electrical code to back up the answer. Not someone's opinion on what should be safer. No documentation to back up the answer when opinion is brought in to the scenario. Who's right? Who's not?

I beleive that a shut-off in the panel is not needed due to common practices for a safer situation. Plus with the less than 6 swipes to turn it off, it is still safe. We could argue the what ifs all day long, with no one winning.

I think Mr. Merino hit it on the head. Let's agree to disagree.

[Michael J. Merino]

I do have a question on the 6 swipe rule; it is really a 6 switch rule. There are 16 breakers in this panel, 2 breakers are linked as a single shut off. I think that is more than 6 swipes or switches. It is 15 switches or swipes to shut the power, and no access to the main panel. So let me ask this question. Isn't the code wrong? Code changes all the time. Would anyone be surprised if it were to become code in a few years that LSE have a disconnect? Does anyone think it is silly to have GFCI for all receptacles in a home, not just "wet" areas; because that is new code this year. Why have a disconnect at the A/C compressor, when it can be disconnected at the main panel? Because someone decided it would be safer, is why.

I guess my point is this, why wait until someone is hurt or property is lost or damaged before a safer method is used. I am just being proactive with my client for his circumstance. No access to the main panel, 15 switches to disconnect power. Seems reasonable to recommend a disconnect. You guys can insult me or call me stupid all you want, those type of statements reflect on you, not me.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by jpope

Absurd. . .

Absurd for you young guys. But some people (my clients) spend a lot of energy thinking about not falling and breaking their hips because they see their 80-year old friends slipping and falling every day. (especially when they've had too much to drink during their game of checkers)

Client: I have difficulty walking. I'm concerned about slipping.
Inspector: ABSURD.
Client: In the past, I have had difficulty maintaining balance on a slippery bath floor.
Inspector: You're ABSURD too!
Client: I have to use a walker in the bathroom, and I'm concerned about slipping.
Inspector: Let me spell it for you: U-R-ABSURD! ...... And that'll be $400 for my inspection please.

lol....

Non-slip surfaces are actually a big deal for ADA and commercial related inspections. Not absurdly a big deal, but a big deal.

[relliott]

When first taking an HI course many moons ago I recall the Belman group telling us not to lift any ceiling tiles as a Judge might wonder why we did not lift all of them.

Recommending minute safety upgrades may have the same effect.
Exterior stairs are slippery when wet and if a client slips they will blame you for suggesting them on the bathroom floor but not the exterior stairs.

In Chicago you do not get sued for failing to shovel your sidewalk but can be sued if you shovel and someone slips afterwards.

Careful when opening that can of worms , hmmmm was that a tip and am I responsible to provide more.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Agreed.

Don't ever make recommendations about safety upgrades. Always defer to a professional to inspect further and make determinations or corrections.