No Main Disconnect

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by relliott

Ben does make a Main Breaker seem appealing.

Yes he does, but it's not required. Why tell all your clients about upgrades that can be installed in the home when the home is absolutely fine the way it presently stands.

If an average inspector has all day and wants to recommend upgrades or improvements to make things easier for the homeowner, then feel free. But that inspector better damn well tell every last client about these safety upgrades as well.

I think this thread is really getting ridiculous. For those who recommend shut-offs at LSE as a safety upgrade, good luck with to you. I've got more things to worry about on a home inspection than to dwell on upgrades that can make lives simpler.

I think I'll go have an Electrician upgrade all my light switches. They should be installed alongside every wall every two feet, so I will always have the ability to shut them off in an emergency situation.

[Michael Larson]

If your clients needs and physical limitations exceed the normal population he/she should be relying on his/her health professionals for advice on making his/her home safer.

[relliott]

Originally Posted by wdecker

TOTALLY WRONG HEAD!

We are NOT included in the negotiation process. That is ENTIRELY the perview of the Realtor (if the client is stupid) and the Lawyer (if the client is smart).

I have nad many clients want me to call out stuff so that they can better "negotiate".

Remember, if there is a defect that you should have called out, and didn't, you are liable.

But, if there is NO LEGITIMATE, current and active defect, and you call it out, especially if the client or Realtor ask you to (I have had clients who wanted me to call out 10 year old, 30 year roofs, that had a good 10 more years left on them, all because they (or their Realtor) wanted a new roof so they would not have to every worry about it.) defect it.

That is NOT realistic and you could be, criminally, sued for fraud.

Call it ou as you see it, as it is. Not as you expect it to, perfectly, be.

Hope this helps;

If you call out all issues that effect Health ,Safety,and that effect $$$ value of the home are you doing your job Will?

Tell me please what else there is (with out your ANGRY TYPE please) .

It is all about protection of people and property Will regardless of what your Lawyer family tells you.

I do what is best for my clients while you are busy typing dis claimers.

My job is to go in and determine (in many cases) 100 years of history in 3 hours and report back to the client what needs to be done in order to make the home safe and keep its $$$ value.

Somehow your ANGRY rebutal makes no sense ,seems disjointed and as always aimed at me.

As stated many times before you can pickup the phone and call if you wish or do you need to get a Lawyers advise before doing so.

Will, life is short and I simply do what is best for my client because I care, while you seem to spend much of your effort worrying about court suits.

Please just do what is good for your client and things might get bettor for you .

You need to realize that we are not writing novels or how to books even though we all feel we are secretly Bob Villa that is not what we are hired to do.

We are finding problems that effect the sale price is what it comes down to whether or not you admit it as the first thing a client does is pass you report to the Lawyer.

I never enter part of the negotiations and have never even set foot in a RE Agents office to this day.

I have never marketed to an Agent or Lawyer as they hate my thoroughness.

(can you please here in public make that same claim)

Why do most HI's have a punch list?

Stairs are missing handrails and it is a safety hazard (yes or no)? It is also in codes everywhere and I use them to assist my reasoning (yes or no)?

Who is going to correct this issue?

My client wants to know and brings it up to the Lawyer that represents him or her (yes or No)?

I am not an Ostrich

My report is for the client but would need to be deaf , dumb and blind to pretend that it is never used in the above manor.


In one sentence please explain your exact job.

Last but not least please stop making your attacks so personal and aimed at me as it is more obvious than you think.

Will you have a talent for teaching and your tall stature make you a commanding presence but I do not drink Kool aide ,so please stop getting upset every time you feel slighted that all Chicago guys do not agree with every thought you have.Thanks Will,
and please keep a cooler head .

Can this be the last time you personally attack me? (please)(with sugar on it)

Too sum up here, I live in the real world and know what my report is often being used for.
This does not mean that is the audience I am playing to.

With so many Foreclosures out there the price is not negotiable at all any way,for the most part, but my clients often use the punch list if you guys wish to call it that ,as a guide to assist them in knowing what more needs to be done to the home in order to make it livable ,Only one time has a client ever needed to call in a question regarding something on my report.

I am proud of that track record and have my fingers crossed as I type that it continues.

Might be my great Home Inspector Pro software doing all the work, but I will take some of the credit

[Paul W. Abernathy]

OK...

I have to admit I have not read all the posts as time does not permit me to. I am on the go right now and actually looking to possibly leave Virginia to live in another state but I wont go into detail about that right now because nothing is final.

I will comment on the main disconnect within the occupancies of a multi-family unit. The NEC gives us an exception and it has nothing to do with the "6-disconnect rule" which plays no role here. Below is the snippit from the NEC which is our minimum safety standard.

(C) Access to Occupants.

In a multiple-occupancy building,
each occupant shall have access to the occupant’s service
disconnecting means.

Exception: In a multiple-occupancy building where electric
service and electrical maintenance are provided by the
building management and where these are under continuous
building management supervision, the service disconnecting
means supplying more than one occupancy shall be
permitted to be accessible to authorized management personnel
only.

So as you can see in some cases it is not needed to have access to a service disconnect for multi family occupancy situations. While an argument can be made on both grounds and much like the "switch near the shower" situation it is a call you can make but will not hold much water in a court of experts. Typically, I as an electrician would install a panel with a main breaker in this situation only because the cost is usually a wash and I stock panels with main breakers because their use is broader.

This is also a case where if you called something like that out "no main breaker" you would be the WOLF crying on the hill and just would not hold any water. This is why I constantly hear stories from municipal inspectors and AHJ's upset with HI's because who is the expert on the situation...the Master Electrician who is licensed as a specialist or the HI who is licensed as a generalist. The key here is PICK your battles but understand what is allowed and what really is considered a hazard to the homeowner while not playing a fortune teller in the same grasp of air.

[relliott]

Thanks Paul
Can you please explain what is meant by six and clairify.
6 switches ? or how many you can push with one hand.?

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

OK...

I have to admit I have not read all the posts as time does not permit me to. I am on the go right now and actually looking to possibly leave Virginia to live in another state but I wont go into detail about that right now because nothing is final.

I will comment on the main disconnect within the occupancies of a multi-family unit. The NEC gives us an exception and it has nothing to do with the "6-disconnect rule" which plays no role here. Below is the snippit from the NEC which is our minimum safety standard.

(C) Access to Occupants.

In a multiple-occupancy building,
each occupant shall have access to the occupant’s service
disconnecting means.

Exception: In a multiple-occupancy building where electric
service and electrical maintenance are provided by the
building management and where these are under continuous
building management supervision, the service disconnecting
means supplying more than one occupancy shall be
permitted to be accessible to authorized management personnel
only.

So as you can see in some cases it is not needed to have access to a service disconnect for multi family occupancy situations. While an argument can be made on both grounds and much like the "switch near the shower" situation it is a call you can make but will not hold much water in a court of experts. Typically, I as an electrician would install a panel with a main breaker in this situation only because the cost is usually a wash and I stock panels with main breakers because their use is broader.

This is also a case where if you called something like that out "no main breaker" you would be the WOLF crying on the hill and just would not hold any water. This is why I constantly hear stories from municipal inspectors and AHJ's upset with HI's because who is the expert on the situation...the Master Electrician who is licensed as a specialist or the HI who is licensed as a generalist. The key here is PICK your battles but understand what is allowed and what really is considered a hazard to the homeowner while not playing a fortune teller in the same grasp of air.

Paul, if I hired you to install a main breaker for me to serve a panel that does not have one, would you refuse if the code does not require it. Or would you respond to the expressed needs and concerns of your customer and throw in a main disconnect?

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by relliott

Thanks Paul
Can you please explain what is meant by six and clairify.
6 switches ? or how many you can push with one hand.?

Six throws (switches), doesn't matter how big your hands are.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

Paul, if I hired you to install a main breaker for me to serve a panel that does not have one, would you refuse if the code does not require it. Or would you respond to the expressed needs and concerns of your customer and throw in a main disconnect?

That's one way to say it.

Another is,

Would you prey upon my fears for your own profit, or would you explain to me why it is safe as it is, and educate me as to what I should do in an actual electrical emergency (get out of the unit)?

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by mlarson

If your clients needs and physical limitations exceed the normal population he/she should be relying on his/her health professionals for advice on making his/her home safer.

I disagree.I shall inspect with total disregard to my client's concerns/needs? No.

Client: "I have a little trouble getting into the bathtub. Do you think I could install a hand hold bar on the tile wall here?"
Inspector: "Absurd. Why are you asking me? You need to consult a medical doctor! I'm an inspector - not a doctor! Now... stop interrupting me while I inspect only those things that are specifically listed in the SOP. You're concerns about safety are of no concern to me, unless they are written in the SOP."

hee hee.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

I disagree.I shall inspect with total disregard to my client's concerns/needs? No.

But you should also not allow the client to write the report. Would you write up shag carpet if the client didn't like it?

Client: "I have a little trouble getting into the bathtub. Do you think I could install a hand hold bar on the tile wall here?"
Inspector:

"Sure you could".

How hard is that?

Doesn't mean it gets put in the report as a defect.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol...I am not sure what exactly you are asking Ben. I am a Code Official and an NEC Expert so my opinions are going to be based on what the USBC, IBC, IRC and NEC say. While I am also a home inspector I am most certainly not an alarmist by any classification of the word. If you wanted me to install a panel with a main breaker I have no problem with that at all as you can always exceed what the minimum standards are and far be it for me to change that. I always see engineers call for 3/0CU to a set of ground rods when only 6 AWG is required but if thats what they want I will approve it and let them have at it, only to find out they must cad weld it to make it work since no connector will accept it but thats not my call...

What I am saying is the NEC does not require it in the example given as long as all the requirements of the exception is met. Sending fear into a clients mind causes issues that can't be upheld in a court of law, I will indeed fly on a plane again and I know it could crash but I take that risk openly when I do it.

Electrical Contractors are in business to make money like anyone else and if a client is dead set on having a main breaker when one may not be required I know that the cost in itself is very minimal and if it makes them feel more comfortable then so be it as again I am doing what they want. However, if they ask me my opinion based on facts and code then I will give it to them and let them choose the path of least resistance so to speak. I believe we can get a message accross tactful versus being an alarmist on issues like this, Statistically I believe many people live in a dwelling for their entire life and NEVER turn off their main breaker while many turn off branch circuit breakers as the norm and they are designed to protect the circuit in question which I believe MORE should be directed to poorly done directories ( 408.4 ) than a issue like this.

In the end, my electrical firm was based on honesty and integrity so when asked my opinion I gave it freely as I always do here on the boards so some will agree and some will not which is fine. If I knew all the answers I would not be typing on this board, I would be in Boston, MA probably heading up the NFPA and even they dont get it right all the time....facts of life are everywhere.

[rmaday]

True story.

My mother’s home was robbed 20 something years ago. Entry was through a basement window well.

She hired an alarm company to install a security system. My mother insisted that there be contact points on the up stairs windows. The rep for the alarm company refused, as these would only be accessible by ladder and extremely unlikely to be a point of entry for a burglar.

My mother was pretty emotional about the whole thing, and really, really wanted those sensors installed. The rep, who I gained enormous respect for (it would have been easy to add on $$$ for the additional installation), explained (more than once) that while it was remotely possible for the upper windows to be used, it was so unlikely that there was no way he would put them in. He went so far as to leave and told me that if anyone would put them in, that he felt they were taking advantage of her.

A few days later she called him back and he got the job. No sensors on the upper windows.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by rmaday

Sure you could.
How hard is that?

Shag carpet? No. I'm talking about concerns expressed by my client, whom I work for, that are related to safety in particular.

I perform an inspection with regard to my client (and my SOP.) If my client points out something that is a safety concern (in their eyes), I'm paying attention. Those expressed by a client may be: slippery bathroom floors, 3 steps without a handrail, no extra hand bar inside the bathtub, main disconnect switch for a panel in a condo located downstairs and around the corner, no carbon monoxide detectors installed, no AFCIs installed, etc.

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

Shag carpet? No. I'm talking about concerns expressed by my client, whom I work for, that are related to safety in particular.

You never got a baseball cleat caught on the shag carpet as a kid then, huh.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

Shag carpet? No. I'm talking about concerns expressed by my client, whom I work for, that are related to safety in particular.

I perform an inspection with regard to my client (and my SOP.) If my client points out something that is a safety concern (in their eyes), I'm paying attention. Those expressed by a client may be: slippery bathroom floors, 3 steps without a handrail, no extra hand bar inside the bathtub, main disconnect switch for a panel in a condo located downstairs and around the corner, no carbon monoxide detectors installed, no AFCIs installed, etc.

Define the safety concern over the Main Disconnect Switch. I can see falling in the tub, down stairs and carbon monoxides and most of all AFCI's....but those are in many cases a minimum code mandate....I dont see the exception as posted increasing a safety concern unless YOU impose you WILL on the client and bring it up as I am sure they wont so while the other items they would bring up as it directly relates to physical safety......an alarmist will bring up things that provide no basis but makes them feel better....two different beasts.

Personally.....90% or higher homes that have a "sub-panel" within the same dwelling do not have a main breaker....never a problem. Also if that concerned you my friend.....I would get your own panel checked first....lol.....( inside joke )