Q: What causes billions of dollars in damage...?

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by kleonard

As Inspectors we are required to find leaks, be it a plumbing leak, a roof leak or whatever else may leak.

Required to find roof leaks?

Hope you're not telling your client's this. Or at least scheduling all inspections during torrential rains.

No way I could find a roof leak on a beautilful sunshining day.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by kpierce

And that leads to the question: who's doing the training? My state trained trained me that mold is not a WDO. Apparently, the EPA disagrees. Are they right or wrong?

To "Are they right or wrong?" - It does not matter.
Why? I would say that the EPA is a reliable source to which an inspector could refer (particularly in a sticky legal situation).

We've established that: It does not matter whether or not the "moldy-looking substance" is mold or a wood destroying fungus. Because during a visual-only inspection only, you can't tell without sampling. And sampling is not necessary (unless guided by your client).

The question (for me) remains.... What does an inspector write in the report when something that looks like mold is discovered during a visual inspection? Remember... we've established that this "thing" could be something that destroys building materials like wood (hence the term - "wood destroying.")

Request to all Repliers: Please don't refer us to what we all know - that is InterNACHI SOP 3.2.I.J. We know the exclusion. Stick to the question, which is "What do you write..."

[James H. Bushart]

Again.....

If you happen to actually see an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, report it as an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, remark as to how this is outside of the scope of a home inspection and recommend evaluation by someone trained in this area for further evaluation.

[Michael Larson]

- Possible organic substance noted. Consider testing for the presence of mold, mildew or fungi if this is a health concern to your family.

HT-Russell Spriggs

Ben,

IMO you're emphasis on the possibility of wood destroying fungal growth is extremely alarmist ans unwarranted with out further evidence that it is actually occurring.

Each inspector will have to make his own call as to why he would scare the crap out his client with such flimsy support for that assertion.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Again.....

If you happen to actually see an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, report it as an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, remark as to how this is outside of the scope of a home inspection and recommend evaluation by someone trained in this area for further evaluation.

Why even mention the "organic substance" in your report if it is outside the scope of a home inspection, John?
What other millions of things that are outside the scope of a home inspection do you recommend that we put in our report?

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

Why even mention the "organic substance" in your report if it is outside the scope of a home inspection, John?

Because it was observed, Bob.

[Gary Farnsworth]

Ben, if you do not know what to write, you should not be writing on this message board, or teaching us how to do anything. You should already know. Perhaps, you are trying to learn something that you know nothing about.

[John McKenna]

What is important and sometimes very difficult to "see" is the
low levels of moisture (16% and higher) that can activate
a wide variety of fungi spores. ... and also the moisture (20%)
that can activate decay ... and draw in the wood destroying
insects ... and causes corrosion on electrical fixtures (that
can cause overheating) ... etc...

Most of these low levels of destructive moisture are not visible,
but may come from tiny flaws that are extremely hard to see
with the eyes, but still part of the SoP to locate. Just because
the moisture is "hidden" does not mean there is not some
kind of tiny evidence that "should have been seen with the
eyes" that would lead to the discovery.

I saw a meter box on the side of a hardi board exterior wall
that look just like hundreds of others I have seen just like it.
When the windy rain came in from the just the right direction,
the interior bedroom filled up with water as the water wrapped
around the conduit behind the box and flowed into the wall
cavity.

To assume the SoP will protect you in the real world is wishful
thinking, but does not play out in reality. I prefer to use an
IR camera, moisture meter and aggressive detection methods.

Wherever I detect low levels of moisture, see previous moisture
repairs, or previous moisture stains (wet or dry)... I always
make the comment that "moisture can be conducive to fungi-
mold, decay, wood destroying insects, and electrical corrosion
that can cause heat build up... that is not always visible.
Recommend further evaluation and repairs, as needed, by
a qualified Professional".

To ignore these issues is to ignore the laws of science. I know
from my years in construction that all these conditions are
common surprises when you begin to tear apart things for
repairs. I always tell my client that surprises are to be expected
in these areas.

This is not undo panic, but is showing respect for the laws of
science. To ignore these "unseen" possibilities is to ignore
the laws of science. It is better to stop the complaint process
before it gets started... IMHO.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Again.....

If you happen to actually see an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, report it as an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, remark as to how this is outside of the scope of a home inspection and recommend evaluation by someone trained in this area for further evaluation.

http://www.nachi.org/forum/f13/q-cau...tml#post516695

James, you are recommending to write in my report about "an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus." And to write that "it" is outside the scope of a home inspection.

Why are you recommending to observe and report upon things that are clearly "outside the scope of a home inspection" as you put it? Why?

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

James, you are recommending to write in my report about "an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus." And to write that "it" is outside the scope of a home inspection.

Why are you recommending to observe and report upon things that are "outside the scope of a home inspection" as you put it? Why?

If you will read the thread I posted a few days ago regarding a lawsuit in Texas where the SOP and the state HI law, both, disclaim mold as within the scope of a home inspection....the latest Texas law mandating E&O insurance created a target for a home buyer who (it is alleged) saw mold and did not tell the client about it.

Now, with mandatory E&O, the inspector does not have the option to fight the frivolous suit that his SOP and state law were supposed to protect him from. His insurance company gets to make the call and will probably settle to forego the cost of a trial. One more time and they may exercise their right to cancel his insurance and preclude his ability to conduct his business in Texas.

Just as engineering interpretations of various foundation cracks are outside of the scope of a home inspection...when they are observed, they are reported and the client is advised to seek guidance from someone who specializes in that particular area.

Few inspectors come to regret the items they decide to include in their reports...but excluding an observation from a report can be construed as having missed the item by error or omission.

"While the scope of this inspection does not include the testing, search or identification of such things as mold, radon, or other naturally occurring issues --- it does include my observation of the floor joists in crawlspace --- where I observed an organic substance consistent with that of mold attached to several floor joists that were wet and deteriorated. I recommend that the damaged floor joists be repaired or replaced by a qualified contractor. If you are interested in identifying the organic substance and/or testing for its presence in this and other areas where it might be found, I recommend that you contact a specialist in this area."

[John McKenna]

Did you see "organic substance" with a flashlight?

The SoP does not have a provision for flashlights or "organic substances".
You could really be opening yourself up to liability when you exceed the
the SoP.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Again.....

If you happen to actually see an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, report it as an organic substance that is consistent with mold or fungus, remark as to how this is outside of the scope of a home inspection and recommend evaluation by someone trained in this area for further evaluation.

James,
Please list ALL the other things or "substances" that you observe and report, in addition to mold or fungus, that are clearly outside the scope of a home inspection - as you have put it.
Be as detailed as possible with your list.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by bgromicko

James,
Please list ALL the other things or "substances" that you observe and report, in addition to mold or fungus, that are clearly outside the scope of a home inspection - as you have put it.
Be as detailed as possible with your list.

I think I have about covered it. If you can think of anything else I may have missed, provide me with a detailed list of your own.

[Kevin M. Leonard]

Originally Posted by rmaday

Required to find roof leaks?

Hope you're not telling your client's this. Or at least scheduling all inspections during torrential rains.

No way I could find a roof leak on a beautilful sunshining day.

Yes, roof leaks. If it's a beautiful sunny day at the time of inspection I will look for signs of leaks -present or past - and report my findings. If I see a staining around a chimney in the attic I report it. wet or not, currently leaking or not. I report what I see - discrepancies or not. little or big. I report it.

If you have a client that asks you about inspecting the roof for leaks (and trust me they all do expect it) on a dry day, do you tell them, sorry your SOL, call back on a rainy day.

[Ben J. Gromicko]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I think I have about covered it. If you can think of anything else I may have missed, provide me with a detailed list of your own.

I may be able to think of other things. I'll try. I may need your help, since you'd like it to be "detailed" - as you put it. Will you help me fill in the blanks while I "think of anything else you may have missed?"

Let's start with your previous statement, and let's put two "fill-in the blanks" inside it.
Mr. James H. Bushart says: "If you happen to actually see ___________, report it as __________________, remark as to how this is outside of the scope of a home inspection and recommend evaluation by someone trained in this area for further evaluation."