Shame on him

[jwortham1]

By the way, President Bush served. It was Clinton who ran. Does Clinton offend you?

Bush used his connections and money to get himself a National Guard slot and then didn't bother to show up for that when he decided he was too busy.

I didn't know Clinton ran.
I thought he did the same thing millions of other students did at that time.

I also recall him being eligible for the draft and not being selected because of a high lottery number.

Yep. Sounds like running to me.

You've convinced me.

War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

[jferry]

Originally Posted by jwortham1

Bush used his connections and money to get himself a National Guard slot and then didn't bother to show up for that when he decided he was too busy.

I didn't know Clinton ran.
I thought he did the same thing millions of other students did at that time.

I also recall him being eligible for the draft and not being selected because of a high lottery number.

Yep. Sounds like running to me.

You've convinced me.

War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength.

You're intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant and, therefore, not convinceable.

Clinton is one month older than I am. There was no lottery in 1968. I was drafted. Clinton manipulated the system by feigning a commitment to ROTC famously "to protect my political viability". Then quit when the war ended.

Bush showed up, served honorably and was a crackerjack pilot. It was fully aired during Rathergate.

In your case, willful ignorance is strength.

[jwortham1]

You're intellectually dishonest or willfully ignorant and, therefore, not convinceable.

An excerpt from the Washington Post

Waiting for Luck


During many of the personal and political crises of his life, Clinton has followed a pattern of being patient until luck comes his way, which seems to happen quite often. It is not blind luck, but an instinctive sense of timing combined with manipulated luck. The most obvious example was during the late 1960s, when he faced the first traumatic test of his adult life. He opposed the war in Vietnam and did not want to serve in the military, but also did not want to be considered a draft dodger. He dragged out his decision for as long as possible, delaying one induction date, joining the ROTC and then backing out of that agreement when the first draft lottery came around and he drew a lucky number, 311, so high that he would never be called.

I said nothing about 1968.

The first draft lottery of the Vietnam era was held on 1 December 1969.

According to White House documents, Bush flew his F-102 in a deployment to Canada in 1971 -- part of the NORAD mission.

Records show Bush had a ‘‘secret” security clearance for Cold War fighter-interceptor missions and was certified ‘‘combat-ready” to engage Soviet bombers.

In April 1972, at the same time the military began drug and alcohol testing for the first time, Bush stopped flying the F-102, and according to White House documents, did not take a required physical in May. He was formally suspended in September 1972 for failing to take the test. What followed was a period in which Bush sporadically attended Guard drills, according to White House documents, and spent the summer in Alabama.

In May of 1972, the Texas Air National Guard was given an enhanced mission of protecting U.S. borders by then-Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird.

Laird's directive came after a Cuban airliner arrived undetected at the New Orleans airport, nine years after the Cuban missile crisis. Congressional hearings at the time criticized the Pentagon for the Oct. 26, 1971, incident.

Bush was not given a required annual Officer Efficiency Report ‘‘for administrative reasons” for the one-year period after he stopped flying in April 1972, according to the White House records. That period of time is what some critics refer to as Bush's ‘‘missing year,” when records of his service are sketchy.

White House officials have said Bush didn't take his required physical because he went to Alabama to work on a political campaign.

The documents also include the Sept. 29, 1972, order suspending Bush from flight status for ‘‘failure to accomplish” the mandatory physical.

In a book released last week, ‘‘Bush's War for Re-election,” Texas journalist James Moore calls the phrase ambiguous.

‘‘Failure to accomplish” the medical exam ‘‘can imply that Bush did not show up, or he was examined, and a foreign substance was discovered in his blood,” Moore argues in his book.

When pressed by the national media during the 2000 presidential campaign, Bush said he quit drinking in 1986 and hadn't used any illegal drugs since 1974.

The White House records revealed for the first time that as a teenager, Bush had four citations on his driving record for speeding and collisions, which would have required a special enlistment waiver for him to get into the Air Guard. No waiver, however, was found in the records released by the White House, USA Today reported.

Crackerjack pilot? Maybe that should be changed to crackhead pilot.

[William J. Decker]

Jeff;

Source for your later quote?

[Peter Doane]

Originally Posted by jwortham1

One ran as far as his name and money could take him.

I know which one offends me more.

Sounds like your talking about Clinton???

[jferry]

[Clinton] dragged out his decision [to answer his country's and his generation's call to arms] for as long as possible, delaying one induction date, joining the ROTC [after pulling strings to get in during graduate school and intending to back out] and then backing out of that agreement when the first draft lottery came around and he drew a lucky number, 311, so high that he would never be called.

Quod erat demonstrandum.

[jwortham1]

Source for your later quote?

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/break...e=200431401040

More interesting reading.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...duty_at_guard/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer

My entire point in these posts is you don't get to slam one guy for something while overlooking equivelant behavior from the guy you support.

Did Clinton do some things I disagree vehemently with? Yes. he did.

Is GW worse? Yes, in my opinion he is. Simple as that.

Accuse me of being intellectually dishonest?
Joe, maybe you should smell what you are shoveling.

Show me the records that prove your guy showed up in Alabama like he was supposed to.

I will immediately apologize to you and all the other right-wingers I have poked fun at over the last several years.

Prove to me I was wrong. And no, bashing Clinton doesn't prove a thing. I know what he was doing all those years. John Kerry too. They don't have unexplained gaps in their pasts. I can sit down and read it as simple as you please.

So Joe, whip out those records and convert me.

[jwortham1]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

What has been proven? That Clinton did his best to avoid being drafted into a war he didn't support? Along with 10's of thousands of other Americans?

You're right, that IS a smoking gun!

[jferry]

Originally Posted by jwortham1

What has been proven? That Clinton did his best to avoid being drafted into a war he didn't support? Along with 10's of thousands of other Americans?

You're right, that IS a smoking gun!

What has been proven is that Clinton ran. That tens of thousands of other cowards did the same thing does not exonerate him. Nor does the fact that he did not support the war.

It might surprise you but none of us did. But our country called us and we answered. It called Clinton and he ran. Q. E. D.

[jferry]

Originally Posted by jwortham1

Show me the records that prove your guy showed up in Alabama like he was supposed to.

I will immediately apologize to you and all the other right-wingers I have poked fun at over the last several years.

Prove to me I was wrong. And no, bashing Clinton doesn't prove a thing. I know what he was doing all those years. John Kerry too. They don't have unexplained gaps in their pasts. I can sit down and read it as simple as you please.

So Joe, whip out those records and convert me.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washing...military_x.htm

And President Bush released all of his military records. When is your boy Kerry going to sign SF-180? Answer: NEVER. Even though he has promised multiple times to do so.

If he did so, the phoniness of his "medals" would be exposed. Of course, none of that would stop the preternaturally stupid Massachusetts voters from sending the serial trophy-husband back to the Senate or, for that matter, his philandering colleague.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Joe I am trying to find Rummy's and Cheney's records, perhaps you could help. At least before Rummy gets fired for being incompetent.

Oh yea my Korean Vet father and WWII Vet uncle think bush is an idiot and believe that in their day the troops could care less.

And what kind of troops are these, these days that get upset that Bush is in an idiot? It is not like it was a secret.

[Brian E. Kelly]

[quote=jferry for that matter, his philandering colleague.[/quote]

And furthermore Joe, I do not believe the philandandering tack is a good one to take at this time.

My how I miss the good old days when a sodomy scandal was between consenting adulds of the opposite sex. Or when bending over the page referred to reading. Call me old fashioned.

[jferry]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

Joe I am trying to find Rummy's and Cheney's records, perhaps you could help. At least before Rummy gets fired for being incompetent.

Secretary Rumsfeld has a distinguished career of service to this nation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumsfeld#Military_service

It is well-documented that Cheney did not serve.

Oh yea my Korean Vet father and WWII Vet uncle think bush is an idiot and believe that in their day the troops could care less.

Well, I guess that settles it.

And what kind of troops are these, these days that get upset that Bush is in an idiot? It is not like it was a secret.

I guess that's why they got stuck in Iraq. Move over, John Kerry.

[jferry]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

And furthermore Joe, I do not believe the philandandering tack is a good one to take at this time.

My how I miss the good old days when a sodomy scandal was between consenting adulds of the opposite sex. Or when bending over the page referred to reading. Call me old fashioned.

There's no evidence that Foley 'bent over' any pages. Nevertheless, he did the right thing in resigning.

Too bad Mr. Kerry's Massachussetts colleague, whose criminal behavior is well documented, does not have the same level of shame.

[William J. Decker]

One point to consider. We are all talking about a President (or Presidential candidate) and their ability to fight a war based upon their own military service.

One point to consider is that almost all the Presidents who fought wars have little or none military service.

FDR - WWII and did a pretty good job (although there were great losses and set backs for the first 3 years) and never served a day.

Woodrow Wilson - No military service.

Abraham Lincoln - Served 92 days in the local Militia during the Blackhawk Indian wars. He also recieved much flack for his running of the Civil War.

Harry Truman - Served in the artiliery during WWI, but the Korean War was, arguably, the first modern war, a limited war. Eisenhower ended it with a cease fire, not a victory or an agreement.

JFK - War hero, to be sure. He started US involvment in Vietnam. It can be argued that if JFK were alive today, he would be a Neo-Con.

Johnson - Ran the majority of Vietnam and never served.

Nixon - Ended the Vietnam war (as a bug-out) and served in non-combat roles in the Navy.

In other words, there has never been a requirement for a President to have military experience. The President is COmmander-in-Chief.

BTW> History also shows that the overwhelming majority of the wars that the US has fought in were never declared by Congress.

Iraq was.