International Association of Certified Home Inspectors

kpierce · #31 10/21/08, 4:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlarson

I'm holding my tongue for later.

Kevin,

I can prove to you that you have faith. Interested?

I should actually say that you can't prove a fact based argument on faith. A general argument could revolve around anything, not necessarily fact based at all.

kpierce · #32 10/21/08, 4:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlarson

I'm holding my tongue for later.

Kevin,

I can prove to you that you have faith. Interested?

I never said I don't have faith. I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow. Just that we, as a country, should not use faith in a man written book of stories as justification to write laws and policies.

Michael Larson · #33 10/21/08, 4:16 PM

How do you determine your faith in the sun is valid, ie. reasonable?

kpierce · #34 10/21/08, 4:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlarson

How do you determine your faith in the sun is valid, ie. reasonable?

I don't. Simple as that. I don't claim to know that the sun will come up. I don't try to shove down the throats of others that the sun will indeed come up tomorrow. If it doesn't, I'm not wrong, I'm just very interested in why it didn't.

kpierce · #35 10/21/08, 4:22 PM

I'd be happy to discuss this further, however, I'm fortunate enough to have an inspection so I'll talk to you in awhile.

Michael Larson · #36 10/21/08, 4:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpierce

I don't. Simple as that. I don't claim to know that the sun will come up. I don't try to shove down the throats of others that the sun will indeed come up tomorrow. If it doesn't, I'm not wrong, I'm just very interested in why it didn't.

But you faith it will come up.

Quote:

I have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow.

Who's shoving anything down your throat?

We're just two HIs talking.

kpierce · #37 10/21/08, 9:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlarson

But you faith it will come up.
See post #32

Who's shoving anything down your throat?
Not you, but the majority of religious people in general, in my experience, have this desire to push their beliefs on everyone else.
We're just two HIs talking.
I know, I should have been more clear in my previous post.

I have faith in many aspects of my life. I have faith in my wife, faith in my daughter, faith in science.

The key difference between my faith and religious faith is that I don't claim to believe my faith as fact and I certainly don't push my faith on others.

If evidence shows up in one aspect of my faith that contradicts something I once believed, I will accept it and continue on. On the other hand, when evidence is presented to someone of a specific religion that contradicts the scripture, not one true believer will accept it and move on. They dig their feet into the scripture and use "God wanted it that way" as their only line of defense. Hence, you cannot have a fact based, logical debate between religion and science when religion is not based on facts or logic.

Russell J. Hensel · #38 10/21/08, 9:17 PM

Why are the Righties talking about Socialist movements? Did George bush just not socialize the banking system in the US?

mnahrgang · #39 10/21/08, 9:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpierce

... On the other hand, when evidence is presented to someone of a specific religion that contradicts the scripture, not one true believer will accept it and move on. They dig their feet into the scripture and use "God wanted it that way" as their only line of defense. Hence, you cannot have a fact based, logical debate between religion and science when religion is not based on facts or logic.

I think you may have misinterpreted something to come to this conclusion, because it's not true at all.

What you are experiencing is not an unwillingness to accept evidence, but an unwillingness to accept someones interpretation of what that evidence tells us.

For example, I personally accept that dinosaurs once walked on the Earth as a fact, because of the evidence of their fossils. What I don't accept as fact is someones interpretation of the evidence that tells them this happened millions and millions of years ago. So the evidence of existence is fossils, I accept that. The conclusion of when they lived, is an interpretation.

My "faith" tells me to use my brain, and use logic, and interpret the evidence to come to a conclusion. That conclusion is not evidence, any more than some evolutionary "scientists" conclusions are.

I also personally have the added benefit of knowing who is responsible for all this evidence. That (along with a lot of collaborating evidence) allows me to have the "faith" that what He has told me in the Bible is fact.

mnahrgang · #40 10/21/08, 9:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhensel

Why are the Righties talking about Socialist movements? Did George bush just not socialize the banking system in the US?

To a certain degree he did. That's why he's gotten a lot of flack from the "Rightie" side too.

Russell J. Hensel · #41 10/21/08, 9:45 PM

My "faith" tells me to use my brain, and use logic, and interpret the evidence to come to a conclusion.

Mark Nahrgang

Interpret - Now there is a word that is vague as HELL. Code inspectors have the out of its up to their "interpretation". Bill Clinton said he did not sexual relations with that woman. His INTERPRETATION was sexual relations meant intercourse. I saw a black man wobble down the street. Many interpret he may have been intoxicated. FACT could be that he has a physical disabilty. Preception is 98% reality. You MAKE the facts fit the way you want them to fit. The reason guys slap their wives is because SHE MADE HIM DO IT! Democrats will see it their way and repubs will see it their way and both can makes the "FACTS" fit any way they want to fit.

Faith has NOTHING to do with facts....hence the word FAITH. Look it up.

Every word in the bible is fact? What does an "Eye for an Eye mean?" Exodus and Leviticus means that if you are harmed you must get even. But then Mathew states that you must turn the cheek. So what is FACT? Let me guess...........depends on your interpretation.....

kpierce · #42 10/21/08, 9:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mnahrgang

I think you may have misinterpreted something to come to this conclusion, because it's not true at all.

What you are experiencing is not an unwillingness to accept evidence, but an unwillingness to accept someones interpretation of what that evidence tells us.

For example, I personally accept that dinosaurs once walked on the Earth as a fact, because of the evidence of their fossils. What I don't accept as fact is someones interpretation of the evidence that tells them this happened millions and millions of years ago. So the evidence of existence is fossils, I accept that. The conclusion of when they lived, is an interpretation.
Your are correct. However, the interpretation is not only based on a fossil record. It's based on radiocarbon dating, dendrochronology, evidence of lengths of geological processes, etc. This doesn't even touch the surface of evidence to indicate the earth is much older that 6,000 years....let alone created in 6 days.
My "faith" tells me to use my brain, and use logic, and interpret the evidence to come to a conclusion. That conclusion is not evidence, any more than some evolutionary "scientists" conclusions are.
You are correct again. However, talk to any scientist and they will agree that their conclusion is not evidence. It's a theory based on the evidence provided. You see, real scientists are humble. They understand that empirical evidence points to the truth, not that it is the truth. Religion is not humble. There is no evidence other that a man written book. Yet every truly religious person will claim it to be the end all truth....no humility.

I also personally have the added benefit of knowing who is responsible for all this evidence. That (along with a lot of collaborating evidence) allows me to have the "faith" that what He has told me in the Bible is fact.
Again, you have no evidence, just a book.

This debate will go on forever.

Michael Larson · #43 10/21/08, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpierce

This debate will go on forever.

Which only proves that we have faith in different things.

Think about it.

kpierce · #44 10/21/08, 10:02 PM

BTW, why do accept that dinosaurs walked the Earth. Because there's a fossil record? Why then don't you accept that evolution takes place? We have evidence of that as well.