Consumer Advocacy Group Announces Opposition to Missouri HB 2057!!!

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

Over the past 2 months I've seen several groups like this advertising to take an ONLINE 120 hr (?????) course to get qualified for your Missouri HI License.

Always 120 hrs - when we don't even have a license. Seems like somebody is PLANNING on something. Wonder who?

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by dbowers

Over the past 2 months I've seen several groups like this advertising to take an ONLINE 120 hr (?????) course to get qualified for your Missouri HI License.

Always 120 hrs - when we don't even have a license. Seems like somebody is PLANNING on something. Wonder who?

It's going to be a real pleasure to disappoint them.

They will have to recruit for students based upon the merit of their program. There will be not legislature mandating attendance in their classes this year, if we have anything to say about it.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Protect the consumer? The consumer doesn't think so.

From the letter:

"I am President of Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings, a national grass roots not for profit (501c3) advocating for the safe and sound construction of new homes."

This org is dedicated to fighting poor construction practices in new homes built by builders not HI's. !!! What does this group have to do with HI practices???

"In the 15 years that I have been dealing with homeowners in Missouri I have never had a complaint against a Home Inspector."
Of course not! Why would anyone complain to a group fighting/advocating about poor construction practices by new home builders and that has really nothing to do with HI training, practices or regulation.

This is letter is all a smoke screen and distraction from the real issues. Why she should have an opinion carrying more weight than anyone else is a distortion. Usually groups like this are privately and poorly funded by a small group of citizens who had problems with builders. SO.........Who's donating to her org to get her support?

[Richard L. Bennett]

All

Do we see something against the law here or am I just picking on someone??



rlb

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

From the letter:

"I am President of Homeowners Against Deficient Dwellings, a national grass roots not for profit (501c3) advocating for the safe and sound construction of new homes."

This org is dedicated to fighting poor construction practices in new homes built by builders not HI's. !!! What does this group have to do with HI practices???

"In the 15 years that I have been dealing with homeowners in Missouri I have never had a complaint against a Home Inspector."
Of course not! Why would anyone complain to a group fighting/advocating about poor construction practices by new home builders and that has really nothing to do with HI training, practices or regulation.

This is letter is all a smoke screen and distraction from the real issues. Why she should have an opinion carrying more weight than anyone else is a distortion. Usually groups like this are privately and poorly funded by a small group of citizens who had problems with builders. SO.........Who's donating to her org to get her support?

Home inspectors are quite regularly engaged in inspections related to new constructions. I don't understand your confusion.

This is a consumer advocacy group that represents the interests of people who have been victimized by Missouri's unlicensed builders and unlicensed contractors...in counties where building codes are not on the books and/or are not enforced.

These consumers, and the group that represents them, is extremely relevant to this argument.

You really need to open your mind to facts and stop looking at your narrow agenda through such of a narrow perspective.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Home inspectors are quite regularly engaged in inspections related to new constructions. I don't understand your confusion.

HI's don't do much new construction here.

This is a consumer advocacy group that represents the interests of people who have been victimized by Missouri's unlicensed builders and unlicensed contractors...in counties where building codes are not on the books and/or are not enforced.

SO......you need unlicensed HI's to inspect unlicensed builders and unlicensed contractors to inspect areas where the codes are not adopted/enforced.........all makes sense to me now..........I see consistancy in the argument.

Why don't the powers that be enact the codes and force builders to be licensed. That may solve a lot of problems.........but wait.........that would mean less need for HI's = less business. The logic becomes much clearer now!!! Don't ever change anything!!! Hell, they're screwing up a good thing! Progressive countries thrive on change.

These consumers, and the group that represents them, is extremely relevant to this argument.

You really need to open your mind to facts and stop looking at your narrow agenda through such of a narrow perspective.

Seems to me that more than 50% of states (actually 30) have HI legislation. Seems to be a trend developing!! Can all be wrong? There's no need for HI legislation???

If all states and provinces adopt HI legislation, would there be any need for national associations at all? Hey.....no fighting between associations.......sounds good to me. Scary, isn't it, Nick??

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

There's no need for HI legislation???

Not in Missouri.

Thanks for asking.

[Joe Farsetta]

Brian,

Despite all the licensing, no one has ever proven the need for such legislation, or its effectiveness in helping the consumer.

Not a single time.

In fact, except for some licensing fees, I would bet that it COSTS more to administer the program, than monies collected.

Licensing is about CONTROL. Licensing is about MONEY. Nothing else.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Not in Missouri.

Thanks for asking.

Funny guy!!!

[Doug Edwards, CMI]

"I own myself the friend to a very free system of commerce, and
hold it as a truth, that commercial shackles are generally unjust,
oppressive and impolitic - it is also a truth, that if industry
and labour are left to take their own course, they will generally
be directed to those objects which are the most productive, and
this in a more certain and direct manner than the wisdom of the
most enlightened legislature could point out."

-- James Madison (speech to the Congress, 9 April 1789)

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

Funny guy!!!

Thanks, but I was being serious.

I have learned that arguing against licensing with people who want to be controlled by their government....is like trying to teach a pig to sing. All I do is waste a lot of time and piss off the pig.

No consumer group has ever supported a licensing law. We now have one who has opposed a licensing law. The argument that licensing is a benefit to the consumer is without basis in fact.

[John McKenna]

Below is a sample from one month's issue of the TREC newsletter.

My question is this: ARE ANY LAWS GOOD AND WHY?

Below are public postings from the TREC website, but the private information has been removed.
I have not included a link because I do not want to cause harm to anyone.

XXXXXX
(XXXXXX); license #XXXX
Agreed reprimand of professional inspector license, entered January 23, 2007; performed a real estate inspection in a negligent or incompetent manner, in violation of §1102.301 of the Texas Occupations Code; failed to report as in need of repair a food waste disposer wired directly into the structure’s electrical system, without a shut-off mechanism within close proximity to the disposer unit, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.229(b)(1) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair a furnace improperly housed in a closet that did not allow for normal intake of combustion air and could cause carbon monoxide to enter into the home’s air distribution system, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.229(t)(4) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair a gas line to the furnace made of improper material, in violation of 22 TAC §535.229(t)(6) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair an extension cord hardwired into the furnace wiring; in violation of 22 TAC § 535.230(c)(12) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair an exposed junction where the extension cord was wired into the furnace, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.230(c)(6) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission

XXXXXX
(XXXXXX); license #XXXX
Agreed 1 year suspension of professional inspector license effective, March 28, 2007; beginning September 28, 2007 remaining 6 months probated for 2 years; performed a real estate inspection in a negligent or incompetent manner, in violation of §1102.301 of the Texas Occupations Code; failed to report as in need of repair cracks in the mortar of exterior brick walls around windows, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.228(e)(1) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair evidence of a water stain and a hole in two ceiling areas and failed to report locations of drywall cracks reported to be of structural concern, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.228(c)(1)of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report the depth of attic insulation, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.228(h)(10) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair lack of properly functioning GFCI receptacles in the kitchen located greater than six feet away from the sink, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.230(c)(2)(G) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report the type(s) of heating system and energy source(s), in violation of 22 TAC § 535.229(t)(1) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair two malfunctioning furnaces, in violation of 22 TAC § 535.229(t)(2) and 22 TAC § 535.229(t)(3) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission

XXXXXX
(XXXXXX); license #XXXX
Agreed 1 month suspension of professional inspector license fully probated for 2 years, effective March 29, 2007; performed a real estate inspection in a negligent or incompetent manner, in violation of §1102.301 of the Texas Occupations Code; failed to report as in need of repair improper grading that sloped toward the house, which would allow water to pool near the foundation, in violation of 22 TAC §535.228(a)(of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report the type of roofing, in violation of 22 TAC §535.228(h)(1) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report as in need of repair a flexible gas supply line to the furnace that was routed through the furnace housing, which is an improper connection because of the risk of damage to the line from the metal edge of the hole in the furnace housing, in violation of 22 TAC §535.229(t)(6) and 22 TAC §535.229(t)(6) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; failed to report the type of branch circuit wiring, in violation of 22 TAC §535.230(c)(1) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission; reported an inspection on a form that deviated from the required TREC REI 7A-0 form by reformatting the required block of text on the first page such that much of the text was missing, in violation of 22 TAC §535.223(c) of the Rules of the Texas Real Estate Commission

[William J. Decker]

Licensing can help, but only if it is done in the right way.

Remember, legislators don't know anything about anything except how to get themselves re-elected. When the constituants complain about stuff, like bad construction, the legislators see that they have to act in order to get re-elected. It makes no difference that whenever governement gets involved the situation is usually made worse.

People, in large part, think that their problems can be solved by the government. This is false, but it makes them feel better (and allows them to pass their own responsibility onto others) to believe this.

If contractors (electricians, carpenters, plumbers, etc) are required to meet certain education and experience requirements and are tested (both by a paper exam and a practical exam) before they can get licensed, and are required to take continuing education, that can be a good thing. At least in means that there is some minimum level of verified experience and knowledge involved.

The same applies to HIs.

In Illinois, only roofers and plumbers are state licensed (BTW: To even sit for the exam, plumbers must belong to the union. Go figure.)

Electricians, carpenters, masons, HVAC techs and general contractors are usually required (by some local municipalities and/or counties) to be licensed, but the testing is not always regirous and there is no CE requirement.

Case in point. I know alot about electrical, but I also know that there is a great deal I do not know. Yet, I am a licensed electrical contractor. Sat for the test (open book) and paid my fee. But I would never consider myself qualified to wire a house. I have never worked as an electrician (except for some repairs I made to some of my own buildings) and would not feel right charging anyone to do electrical work for them.

But, according to most municipalities in Illinois (not Chicago. There you have to be union) I am legally qualified to do residential electrical work.

Go figure.

But, I would say that the contractors should be required to be licensed (with the above requirements) before HIs are. This is just plain common sense.

But then, state legislators have never been known for their common sense

Just my 2 cents.

[John McKenna]

Will,

Good post. It would seem that if we point at incomplete laws we can find
the holes in the system. If done properly, some laws (for anything) do indeed help.

A lot of personal agendas get mingled into some laws, but that does not mean
that the intent of the law was wrong to begin with... it just needs fixed.

We are a republic (a nation of law). The dire warnings of how horrible things
will get if inspectors are governed by a SoP, enforced by law, are not as bad
as some would say.

Some laws are good and some are bad. Poorly written laws do not make all
law bad... IMHO.

I do not see InterNACHI's existence threatened by regulation, because it offers
so many benefits that make it prosper in any state, regardless.

[William J. Decker]

People get mixed up.

They believe that if someting is wrong, you pass a law.

They further believe that if a law is passed, the problem is solved.

But it is not.

The law against murder does not stop murder, it just makes procecuting someone for murder possible.

Likewise, police do not "protect" the public. They cannot do this, even if we really believe that they can.

Police can only find and arrest someone who they believe has violated a law and hand them over for a trial to determine if they really have.

Restraining orders do not stop, say, domestic violence, they just make it possible for the police to arrest, say, an abusive spouse who has a restraining order against him. But the restraining order does not and cannot stop him from going over and beating his wife.

Licensing laws do not and cannot stop bad contractors or HIs, they merely make it possible to hold these people accountable, and then, only in civil court, if they mess up.

So, licensing does not "solve" the problem, it only makes dealing with the people who violate it easier.

Hope I have been clear.