Covering yourself

[Scott A. Hand]

I understand the representative number of outlets concept. But should we test any outlet that is within reach, not being used and visible?

I test any outlet available in every room. This ends up being a representative number due to most rooms having some covered by furniture or in use. I guess I feel I would not be doing my client any favors by skipping any outlet that it accessible.

If the home is vacant I test every outlet. Why not? Doesn't take but 2 seconds. And I might find something that should have been caught. I don't want to miss the reverse polarity in the one outlet I didn't test, that I had access to. Or I check just a couple outlets per room and all seems ok, I report no problems and when they move in they have dead outlets or some other defect that I missed and all I had to do is bend over and test the other two outlets in that room. Something that could have been caught by me, wrote in the report as in need of repair, and fixed by the seller before closing or at the very least fixed by the buyer because it was no big deal to them, no surprise.

Make sense or am I way off base here?

Does that make any sense?

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

Mark -

Its perfectly correct to refer to a LICENSED & COMPETENT something, and recommend that he EVALUATE the ENTIRE xxxxxx system in the house. Such as a 50 year old $650,000 house we did 2 weeks ago.

Comments from the SUMMARY page regarding the electrical system.
__________________________________________________ ________

We noted various electrical conditions in the branch circuits that should be serviced and repaired by a licensed and competent electrician. These conditions include among others:
1. Multiple extension cord(s) were being used for permanent wiring. This is a common but improper wiring practice and should be properly corrected;
2. Open electrical junction boxes with exposed wire splices present at the basement, attic, garage, rear porch;
3. Wires exposed on walls or ceilings (wires should be in wall cavities or conduit);
4. The GFCI outlet in the kitchen would trip manually but would not trip with a test meter; ALL bath GFCI's are defective (not resetting);
5. Most of the 1st floor of the house & screened porch had reversed polarity outlets (except the kitchen, family room and bathroom);
6. Most of the 2nd floor of the house had ungrounded 3-prong outlets (except the bathrooms);
7. The 240v wire ends at the electric furnace were exposed and not in conduit;
8. There will likely be other conditions that a competent and licensed electrician determines are in need of service and repair once he EVALUATES the FULL electrical system.

We noted various electrical conditions in the main OR sub-panels that should be serviced and repaired by a licensed and competent electrician. These conditions include among others:
1. Ground and neutral wires mixed on the same buss bar or connector at sub-panels;
2. No insulation on some of the neutral wiring at the equipment gutter;
3. Unterminated wires loose in the panel;
4. Multiple splices in the main ground wire;
5. The gutter is so full it can not be covered (overstuffed);
6. Improper or incomplete bonding at the main panel and gutter;
7. Multiple wires on circuits designed for only 1 wire (120v and 240v);
8. Breakers and fuses oversized for the wires at the basement and 2nd floor closet;
9. Melting, corrosion and scorching inside 3 of the basement panels;
10. Unprotected openings and missing wire clamps at basement panels;
11. Missing or improper handle ties (a nail) at basement 240v breakers;
12. MOST of the electrical circuits were not labeled as to their usage. Besides being inconvenient, this prevents us from determining if the circuit, wire, breaker, fuse, etc being used is correctly sized for its purpose;
13. There was a fused 400 Amp main disconnect and at least 8 sub-panels (basement, 2nd floor bedroom closet and outbuilding). The sub-panels are a combination of fuse panels and breaker panels. EVERY panel had 1 or more defects and MOST were not labeled as to their purpose or function.
14. The main disconnect has a 40 Amp wire under its lugs feeding the rear A/C;
14. There will likely be other conditions that a competent and licensed electrician determines are in need of service and repair once he EVALUATES the FULL electrical system.


There were MANY electrical conditions present that indicate there has been an EXTREMELY liberal approach to proper installation practices. This type of installation has the potential to become problematic in the future. We recommend having a licensed and competent electrician read ALL of the inspection report; evaluate the buildings FULL electrical system and conditions; then service, repair or replace ALL unreliable conditions or deficiency's in a safe and proper manner prior to closing.

________________________________________

YEP .................. There comes a point in time to say $crew it AND it becomes Perfectly Acceptable AND very intelligent to dump this puppy elsewhere.

ALWAYS remember 1 real important point. YOU the home inspector are the initial cursory screening process ...... NOT the final prescription most of the time.

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

Mark -

One other thing - 90% of the time you can NOT see the entire length of the fireplace flue OR totally verify its FULL condition. Thus this comment:

________________________________________________

The flue was not fully visible. Therefore, it is impossible for a visual home inspection to determine with certainty whether a flue is free of defects. The NFPA (National Fire Prevention Association) recommends that all chimneys be inspected before buying or selling a home. In our opinion this is a prudent recommendation. We recommend having a Certified Chimney Specialist conduct a Level II inspection of the chimney and flue, etc. prior to closing escrow.

[Erby Crofutt]

I just don't like the further evaluation stuff. That's why I'm there, to evaluate.

I typically list the electrical issues I find and put something like

"Have these issues repaired by a qualified electrician, along with any other issues the electrician finds while conducting repairs."

Gee Dan, I must have stolen your flue comment from some other time as mine reads a lot (did I say "a lot") like yours, except it is the National Fire Protection (not Prevention) Association that makes that level II recommendation in NFPA 211 section 14.5.

Mine now reads: (I delete either "fireplace" or "solid fuel stove" to make it specific to the inspection as necessary. It's easier for me to delete one, than type one in.
=============

The flue of the fireplace - solid fuel stove was not fully visible. Therefore, I cannot (within the limits of this visual home inspection) determine with certainty whether the flue is free of defects. The National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) recommends that all chimneys & flues have a "Level II* Chimney Inspection (which will include an examination of the chimney interior by video scanning or other comparable means of inspection) before the home is bought. I agree with that and I also recommend having a Certified Chimney Specialist (who can be found though either www.csia.org or www.nscg.org ) conduct a Level II inspection of the chimney and flue, etc. prior to closing escrow.
======================
Of course, I don't use it when I can see all the way up the flue.
Thanks for letting me steal it, whenever it was.
-

[Blaine Wiley]

I seldom if ever use the term "further evaluation". As a beginner I did use it when HVAC systems were not functioning properly, as in further evaluation and repairs by a licensed HVAC...

Although I now write something more like "the air conditioner did not....diagnosis and repair of the issue(s) by a licensed HVAC..."

Man, my chimney statement is real close to Dans and Erbys, but I got it from Joe Farsetta. Who stole from who?

[rmaday]

Originally Posted by bwiley

I seldom if ever use the term "further evaluation". As a beginner I did use it when HVAC systems were not functioning properly, as in further evaluation and repairs by a licensed HVAC...

Although I now write something more like "the air conditioner did not....diagnosis and repair of the issue(s) by a licensed HVAC..."

Man, my chimney statement is real close to Dans and Erbys, but I got it from Joe Farsetta. Who stole from who?

Further evaluation/diagnosis IMO is really just a matter of semantics and writing style. I think diagnosis is much better for what we do, lest a client see "futher evaluation" for each defect and wonder what we evaluated.

And stole is so evil. Who shared with who is much better.

[Erby Crofutt]

You're right, Rick. Whoever shared it with me, I'm grateful.

[Joe Farsetta]

Blaine,

Stealing is such an ugly word...

BTW, I seemed to have forgotten who I "borrowed the phrase in perpetuity" from.

Classy, ain't I?

[dbelmont]

Originally Posted by sgilligan1

I think everyone should remove the word evaluate from their vocabularies go as far as inspection reports go. I simply recommend repair or replacement for obvious defects. Why would someone else need to evaluate something that I found not to be working as intended. Just fix it!

Most times I do the same. But (there's always one) if I find a questionable foundation I will recommend that an engineer evaluate and specify repairs if needed.

Might do the same on a structural beam. (I can calculate loads and usually can satisy myself that is OK or not. Not OK means engineer to specify repair. OK it's not an issue. But it could conceivably fall into a gray area based on presumptions. If I can't call it clearly then I'm not embarrassed to recommend that it's questionable and needs to be evaluated by an appropriate specialist.

But no one (especially you newbies) should think that I or any experienced inspector will punt most of the time. The key being background in inspection and related fields (measured in many years) and knowledge (measured in serious effort to get every bit of knowledge I can find).

[klott]

Originally Posted by sgilligan1

I think everyone should remove the word evaluate from their vocabularies go as far as inspection reports go. I simply recommend repair or replacement for obvious defects. Why would someone else need to evaluate something that I found not to be working as intended. Just fix it!

When I recommend further evaluation, it does not mean to just repair, it is to evaluate the cost of the repairs and to give the client the necessary knowledge of how the problems can/do affect the current/future value and function of the dwelling and what it will take to make the house a home that they will be happy to come too after a hard day at the office.I don't just use it as insurance. JMO Kenn

[klott]

Originally Posted by shand

I understand the representative number of outlets concept. But should we test any outlet that is within reach, not being used and visible?

I test any outlet available in every room. This ends up being a representative number due to most rooms having some covered by furniture or in use. I guess I feel I would not be doing my client any favors by skipping any outlet that it accessible.

If the home is vacant I test every outlet. Why not? Doesn't take but 2 seconds. And I might find something that should have been caught. I don't want to miss the reverse polarity in the one outlet I didn't test, that I had access to. Or I check just a couple outlets per room and all seems ok, I report no problems and when they move in they have dead outlets or some other defect that I missed and all I had to do is bend over and test the other two outlets in that room. Something that could have been caught by me, wrote in the report as in need of repair, and fixed by the seller before closing or at the very least fixed by the buyer because it was no big deal to them, no surprise.

Make sense or am I way off base here?

Does that make any sense?

You are right on course, always check as much as you can, I always have and have never had a complaint about checking all of them, except from an impatient agent on occasion. Kenn

[Dan Bowers, CMI]

I've got 32 years experience. I feel further evaluation is totally adequate.

Especially as in the case of a fireplace flue when you can't see EVERY section OR when the A/C is cooling but not enough, etc, etc, etc.

WE are the initial SCREENING process NOT the FINAL solution MOST of the time. WE are there to RED FLAG there is a problem OR potential problem.

[Sean Fogarty]

I personally think if you find 20 problems in one area, that a licensed person should come and evaluate it. That many problems is a problem, and someone before did not know what they were doing. I though our job was to find problems, and not spend hours to trace every one down. I am not going to name all 20 issues. If the electrician, who specializes in that field, can not see the issues, then they need a different job. I can handle adding several, not multiple. If the whole house is riddled with problems. It should be reviewed. I personally inspected a home once, and I found five outles that were correct. That's it. Everything else including the main panel were fubar. I think in that case every light fixture should be pulled down. If they can't wire an outlet right, what else is there?