The Lawyer Says The Kansas Law is Good...

[James H. Bushart]

Thanks, Dale.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Thanks, Will.

Hey, when you are right, you are right.

My pleasure.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Wow, Brian. I know how difficult it must have been for you to support us. Thanks, for real.

James, while we have differing opinions about the Licensing of our profession, in your State Licensing of HI's makse no sense whatsoever.

You made an excellent argument for your case by pointing out the lack of enforceable building standards/codes in Kansas.

And I do believe that many, in the Licensing game are in it, just to line their pockets. (NHIE, HI Schools, etc)

[William J. Decker]

OK. Here's the thing:

1) Kansas has most counties that have no building codes. Government dropping the ball with regards to protecting the public. I can, at least in part, understand, because Kansas is, primarily, a rural state with very little local government taxes, and therefore, very little local government revenues with which to fund code enforcment and code inspectors.

Point 1, the local government is dropping the ball with regards to protection of the public, their primary charge.

2) The State of Kansas has no State licensing of general contractors, and the various sub-contracting trades. Therefore, there is no mandatory training, testing or validation of professional qualifications.

Point 2, the state (and local) governments are dropping the ball with regards to protection of the public, their primary charge.

3) With so many new construction houses (based upon the building boom of a couple of years ago) that were built without any government mandated standards of quality, and with, for the most part, so may unqualified and un-professional tradespeople building these houses, they are, to put it mildly, not well built houses. They are not built well with regards to quality, but more importantly, they are not safe, based upon the current, nationally accepted, standards.

Point 3, the state and local governments are dropping the ball with regards to protection of the public, their primary charge.

4) When older houses are repaired or modified or upgraded, the work is usually done by the lowest bidder. The public has an (unwarranted and false) expectation that these tradesman are trained and qualified and licensed (and if they have a buisness license, they can, legally, state that they are licensed, which further confuses the public) but in most cases, they are neither professional or qualified.

Point 4, there are many older houses that have been repaired or modified, so as to be sub-standard in quality or unsafe. Again, the public's expectation is much higher than the factual reality, because the government has dropped the ball.

5) When Real Estate agents try to sell these houses (new or used), the buyer's will hire a home inspector. Most times, these inspectors are trained, qualified, professional and ethical. Given the perfect storm of housing defects out there (both in new construction and in older houses) these inspectors call out these defects. Since most inspectors are good, the buyer gets a bad smell from the houses and either backs away from the deal or demands the seller either fix the problems or lower the price. This makes trouble for the sellers, and for their agents. Sellers, wanting top dollar for their property, and agents wanting the commsission (especially during this depression in housing prices and sales) see the home inspector as the problem.

Point 5, the Real Estate community (which is very well organized and had big political lobbys in the state) try to change the paradigm.

6) Most times, the agents have connections with the builders (preferred listing agents for new construction) and the builders also have a powerful state lobby. Various tradesman groups also have powerful lobbys. Then there are the lawyers, we see a great opportunity for more income through more litigation. Also remember that, many times, lawyers are also state Representitives and Senators and political consulants and congressional aides. So, given all these special interest groups who stand to make more money (and gain more political power) look for a scapegoat.

Point 6, the home inspection industry has very little political clout or money to affect and lobby (read: bribe state officials) to protect their interests.

7) There are some Home Inspector associations whose leadership is more interested in affecting legislation, havings states mandate schooling (which they sell) and testing (which they also sell) and licensing of home inspectors (which they can control, and sell) than they are in actually doing good quality, professional hokme inspections. Since their goals are in accord with the Real Estate, General Contractors, Tradesman organizations and lawyers, they form an alliance. In essence, they are betraying the rank and file of their memberships so they can line their own pockets. This is similar to the various national union leaders who regularly sell their membership down the road in exchange for political power and their own personal, financial gain (i.e., Teamsters, SEIU, AFL-CIO, Autoworkers Union, etc).

Point 7, some national Home Inspector Association leaders get in bed with the other special interests, and betray their membership's interests.

Finally, someone has to be left holding the bag. The government can't because they would not be re-elected. The Realtors can't because they have to make sales and recieve commissions. The builders can't, because they have to pay off the loans the recieved to buy the materials and hire the workers that they need to build the houses. The tradesman can't because they are, usually, working on such a small margin and have to continually work to get more work. Some national Home Inspector associations want to sell their products (rather than represent their membership) and promise their members easy licensing (for a fee).

Who is left? The professional and qualified home inspectors who do not belong to a particular national Home Inspector Association and who do a good job for the client.

Pass licensing legislation (and make it hard for the independent inspectors to obtain a license), and eliminate limits on liability for the small inspectors.

The state makes money on the license fees. The state also sets an SOP where the inspector has to write the report a certain way. Some national Home Inspector associations make money, in new membership, in training, in testing and annual dues. The builders and sub-contractors make money because they can sell their houses and thei services more easily. The Realtors make their sales and their commissions.

FInal point: Does it make sense that the government, who did not set standards for construction or general general and sub-contractor training and licenseing, gets to pass off their responsibilty to the inspectors, AFTER the houses have already been built? Does it make sense that the GCs and sub-contractors get off without any responsibility for their shoddy and sub-standard work? Does ity make sense that the Realtors get off selling houses that are badly and unsafely built? Is the public truely served?

Why is the home inspector, the only person in the whole process who ONLY represents the home buying public in an unbiased way, gets all the liabilty and responsibility when so many others, up the food chain, have already decided that they want no part in protecting the public.

A very sad state of affairs.

[Paul Sabados]

Thank you Mr. Decker. Those are very strong points which should have addressed by the Kansas Legislature and the now departed Governor, prior to putting the cart before the horse. I guess dropping the ball is easier accept when you go home with that twenty dollar PAC check for the re-election war chest at the end of the day.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by wdecker

OK. Here's the thing:

1) Kansas has most counties that have no building codes. Government dropping the ball with regards to protecting the public. I can, at least in part, understand, because Kansas is, primarily, a rural state with very little local government taxes, and therefore, very little local government revenues with which to fund code enforcment and code inspectors.

Point 1, the local government is dropping the ball with regards to protection of the public, their primary charge.

2) The State of Kansas has no State licensing of general contractors, and the various sub-contracting trades. Therefore, there is no mandatory training, testing or validation of professional qualifications.

Point 2, the state (and local) governments are dropping the ball with regards to protection of the public, their primary charge.

3) With so many new construction houses (based upon the building boom of a couple of years ago) that were built without any government mandated standards of quality, and with, for the most part, so may unqualified and un-professional tradespeople building these houses, they are, to put it mildly, not well built houses. They are not built well with regards to quality, but more importantly, they are not safe, based upon the current, nationally accepted, standards.

Point 3, the state and local governments are dropping the ball with regards to protection of the public, their primary charge.

4) When older houses are repaired or modified or upgraded, the work is usually done by the lowest bidder. The public has an (unwarranted and false) expectation that these tradesman are trained and qualified and licensed (and if they have a buisness license, they can, legally, state that they are licensed, which further confuses the public) but in most cases, they are neither professional or qualified.

Point 4, there are many older houses that have been repaired or modified, so as to be sub-standard in quality or unsafe. Again, the public's expectation is much higher than the factual reality, because the government has dropped the ball.

5) When Real Estate agents try to sell these houses (new or used), the buyer's will hire a home inspector. Most times, these inspectors are trained, qualified, professional and ethical. Given the perfect storm of housing defects out there (both in new construction and in older houses) these inspectors call out these defects. Since most inspectors are good, the buyer gets a bad smell from the houses and either backs away from the deal or demands the seller either fix the problems or lower the price. This makes trouble for the sellers, and for their agents. Sellers, wanting top dollar for their property, and agents wanting the commsission (especially during this depression in housing prices and sales) see the home inspector as the problem.

Point 5, the Real Estate community (which is very well organized and had big political lobbys in the state) try to change the paradigm.

6) Most times, the agents have connections with the builders (preferred listing agents for new construction) and the builders also have a powerful state lobby. Various tradesman groups also have powerful lobbys. Then there are the lawyers, we see a great opportunity for more income through more litigation. Also remember that, many times, lawyers are also state Representitives and Senators and political consulants and congressional aides. So, given all these special interest groups who stand to make more money (and gain more political power) look for a scapegoat.

Point 6, the home inspection industry has very little political clout or money to affect and lobby (read: bribe state officials) to protect their interests.

7) There are some Home Inspector associations whose leadership is more interested in affecting legislation, havings states mandate schooling (which they sell) and testing (which they also sell) and licensing of home inspectors (which they can control, and sell) than they are in actually doing good quality, professional hokme inspections. Since their goals are in accord with the Real Estate, General Contractors, Tradesman organizations and lawyers, they form an alliance. In essence, they are betraying the rank and file of their memberships so they can line their own pockets. This is similar to the various national union leaders who regularly sell their membership down the road in exchange for political power and their own personal, financial gain (i.e., Teamsters, SEIU, AFL-CIO, Autoworkers Union, etc).

Point 7, some national Home Inspector Association leaders get in bed with the other special interests, and betray their membership's interests.

Finally, someone has to be left holding the bag. The government can't because they would not be re-elected. The Realtors can't because they have to make sales and recieve commissions. The builders can't, because they have to pay off the loans the recieved to buy the materials and hire the workers that they need to build the houses. The tradesman can't because they are, usually, working on such a small margin and have to continually work to get more work. Some national Home Inspector associations want to sell their products (rather than represent their membership) and promise their members easy licensing (for a fee).

Who is left? The professional and qualified home inspectors who do not belong to a particular national Home Inspector Association and who do a good job for the client.

Pass licensing legislation (and make it hard for the independent inspectors to obtain a license), and eliminate limits on liability for the small inspectors.

The state makes money on the license fees. The state also sets an SOP where the inspector has to write the report a certain way. Some national Home Inspector associations make money, in new membership, in training, in testing and annual dues. The builders and sub-contractors make money because they can sell their houses and thei services more easily. The Realtors make their sales and their commissions.

FInal point: Does it make sense that the government, who did not set standards for construction or general general and sub-contractor training and licenseing, gets to pass off their responsibilty to the inspectors, AFTER the houses have already been built? Does it make sense that the GCs and sub-contractors get off without any responsibility for their shoddy and sub-standard work? Does ity make sense that the Realtors get off selling houses that are badly and unsafely built? Is the public truely served?

Why is the home inspector, the only person in the whole process who ONLY represents the home buying public in an unbiased way, gets all the liabilty and responsibility when so many others, up the food chain, have already decided that they want no part in protecting the public.

A very sad state of affairs.

This is their plan for Missouri in 2010.

We will need all the voices we can collect to ensure that the message gets to the right people.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by psabados

Thank you Mr. Decker. Those are very strong points which should have addressed by the Kansas Legislature and the now departed Governor, prior to putting the cart before the horse. I guess dropping the ball is easier accept when you go home with that twenty dollar PAC check for the re-election war chest at the end of the day.

Let's get this clear:

1) I am Will, and you are Paul. I consider you a friend and a mentor and a REAL good guy who takes care of your wife and get's the job done for your friends and for your chosen calling. May you, and yours, be well and truely blessed, my friend.

Just stop calling me "Mr. Decker". That was my dearly departed Dad, who taught me that I, usually, don't know what I am talking about. I have struggled, for years, to prove him wrong.

2) All too often, the federal, state, county and local governments just simply "blow off" their legal, fiduciary and moral duty to the people who elected them, many times just so they can ge "campaign contributions" so that they can stay in office (as opposed to finding real work that better suits their level of ability, like flipping burgers at Mc Donalds or standing all day saying "Welcome to Wal-Mart").

Politics has ALWAYS been a job with minimal quality requirements, but maximal BS requirememts.

3) We must demand that the public, completely, and take themselves away from "The Game" on TV, the general minutae of life and all the other distractions, to become and stay involved and informed in what is happeining with our local, county, state and federal government institutions, as well as the "non-governmental authorities", like the unions, the "Associations" (and not just HI associations!) and all the other groups who stand to profit from misdirection, obviscation and plain, outritght lies, just so they can continue to feed off the :"government teat". The public is, sadly, too often distracted, and those in government have understood, and used, this weakness.

Feel free to re-blog my comments. I have also posted the above comment on Active Rain, and hope that it gets national attention. This issue is too important to let stand (besides, it is also good marketing )

Hope this helps;

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

This is their plan for Missouri in 2010.

We will need all the voices we can collect to ensure that the message gets to the right people.

Count me in, Jim. If you need me, I am there. Since our states abut, I will be willing to come down there and help, if need be.

Being from Chicago, I have great experience with government BS and can cut right through it, like a knife, as my previous post has shown.

You just gotta break it down into easily understandable point and keep drilling those points home.

Again, and always, hope this helps;

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by wdecker

Count me in, Jim. If you need me, I am there. Since our states abut, I will be willing to come down there and help, if need be.

Being from Chicago, I have great experience with government BS and can cut right through it, like a knife, as my previous post has shown.

You just gotta break it down into easily understandable point and keep drilling those points home.

Again, and always, hope this helps;

You're in, Will.

This will be a gun fight...so don't bring your knife, if you know what I mean. This Kansas law only covers half of Kansas City and the KAR fully expect to buy the other half this year.

[William J. Decker]

Originally Posted by jbushart

You're in, Will.

This will be a gun fight...so don't bring your knife, if you know what I mean.

Jim. I grew up on the South Side of Chicago.

They bring a knife, your bring a bat,

They bring a bat, you bring a gun,

They beat one of yours, you kill one or two of theirs.

If they bring a gun, I will bring a whole Marine Division.

I know the drill, especially with regards to politics. Chicago, and all of Illinois, is known for that. Bare knuckle politics.

I am only sorry that the current reprentatives of this culture are leftists and are currently messing up Washington. They are not, truely, representative of "The Chicago Way".

Hope this helps;

[Gary Farnsworth]

“(e) make all necessary investigations into the qualifications of or allegations of misconduct against an applicant and registrant. In connection with any investigation by the board or its duly authorized agents or employees shall at all reasonable times have access to and the right to examine and copy any document, report, record or other physical evidence of any registered home inspector being investigated or any document, report, record or other evidence maintained by and in the possession of any registered home inspector;…”

The preceding is what it says in HB 2260. My attorney has advised me. He is a prominent lawyer specializing in contractor litigation, real estate, contract and constitutional law. It cost me $500 to get his advice. He has never seen a clause like this in any legislation.

The following is in Kansas Statue Book Chapter 65: Public Health Article 28: Healing Arts. This is for all State of Kansas Doctors. My attorney also stated that this same wordage is found in the real estate statute and attorney statue laws. Please note the similarity. Also note the missing wording in the home inspection law of anything after the word “if” in the statue below. This should be changed through legislation. I have recently have had converstations with Kansas State Senator Karin Brownlee. I get the fact that law needs to be "fixed", and more legislation and changes to the law will follow. I challenge any attorney, Mark, Joe, to respond to this.

Page 25 of the Kansas Statutes of the Healing Arts:

“the board or its duly authorized agents or employees shall at all reasonable times have access to, for the purpose of examination, and the right to copy any document, report, record, or other physical evidence of any person being investigated, or any document, report, record or other evidence maintained by and in the possession of any clinic, office of a practitioner of the healing arts, laboratory, pharmacy, medical care facility or other public or private agency if such document report, record, or evidence relates to medical competence, unprofessional conduct or the mental or physical ability of a licensee safely to practice the healing arts.”

If we are to be doctors, then we should be respected by the real estate agents, communities, the home buying public, and inspections should then be required in any home sale transaction. We are then professionals, must be respected by all, and recommended by all persons involved in the real estate transactions. Perhaps even we must have the same education, work study programs, post graduate study, apprentice programs that doctors and lawyers have; and get paid the same.

[James E. Braun, CMI]

I agree, licensing should raise the bar of the home inspection industry, not lower it.

I still do not understand how a proper investigation of a home inspector would ever be held? Is Barnes, an inspector with very questionable ethics, going to perform these investigations out of his home?