NY Inspectors... BEWARE !!!

[Joseph Burkeson, CMI]

If this is true it is a very good reason to become ICC Certified. As an ICC Certified Professional you are in fact Certified to use the IRC and any ASTM or referenced standard referred to in the code book. The whole purpose of the IRC was allow professionals to build 1-2 Family homes without any need for engineering whatsoever.

[Bill C. Merrell, CMI]

There is a new rumor, in which I asked to receive a copy. Multiple PE Engineers are actually hiring Licensed Home Inspectors to inspect homes, and then they have plans to review the inspection to see it the actual inspection exceeds the guidelines in NY State for Inspectors. If it does, they plan to file both a formal complaint with the Dept. of State, and file a notice with the state that the individual is practicing engineering without a license.

As soon as I see the actual e-mail, which I was told about today, I will be happy to send it to anyone who wants a copy.

ONCE I RECEIVE THE HARD COPY-EITHER BY E-MAIL OR FAX, I WILL FAX IT TO ANYONE WHO REQUESTS IT- HAVEN'T RECEIVED THIS YET- ONLY THE PRIOR LETTER WHICH I FAXED OUT TO ANYONE WHO REQUESTED IT.

[Joe Farsetta]

If one was to review the SOP of ASHI and NACHI (as an example), the guidelines as to what is done during an inspection, as to any standard of care, is fairly well defined. The DOS here in NY, in conjunction with the HI Advisory Board, will mandate such an SOP in coming months. Once that is done, the State Board of Land Surveying and Professional Engineering will be hard-pressed to prove anythng.

If I use a laser level, and detect that a floor is sloped, and note that in my report, I have not practiced professional engineering (but I have exceeded most SOPs for a home inspection). I have observed and documented a conditon. I cant state definitively what the cause is. The law, as it is written, specifically states that I must apply engineering data and principals to be in violation of the law. Observation and documentation is neither. The Board of Land Surveyors and PE can render any opinon they want. They need to read their own law first, and examine how their own profession operates in the HI field, before accusing us of anything. I also wonder of a PE seal is placed on every HI they perform... doubtful.

I like the old addage that one should be careful what one asks for, as they might get it.

For instance, PEs now must get HI licenses to perform home inspections. That means that there is a clear distinction between the two professions. Secondly, PE firms that send out non-PEs to perform home inspections, and perform inspections that include any of the things they ***** at us about, would also be in violation of the law, based on their self-serving determination. In reality, they must perform the inspection themselves.

Finally, the notion that only a PE is qualified to review the capacity and condition of electrical and mechanical systems is laughable. Many engineers, particularly electrical engineers, are NOT licensed PEs. Electricians regularly draw wiring plans, calculate electrical load capacities of residential dwellings, evaluate, review, and suggest corrective actions. The same goes for plumbers and HVAC contractors. Most of these are licensed professions. Most are not PEs, nor do they hire the services of a PE when deciding the correct size of a system, how ductwork is to be routed, or deciding how many linear feet of baseboard heat is to be installed.

I anticipate a fight. And for good reason. It seems to me that there is a relatively small group of PEs who have a particular bent. I cant believe that many PEs give a tinker's damn about home inspectors. Most I have spoken to shake their heads and tell me that you couldnt pay tem enough to do a home inspection. We're not looking for a confrontation. It appears that some may be preparing to wage a turf war. Too bad, really

Bill... when you get that e-mail, please forward it to me. I will send it to my state representative. This sounds like harassment. Pure and simple.

[Dale Duffy]

Sounds like New York is not a bit different than any other state. One is required to be an engineer to offer any engineered assessment, combining physics and mathematics. A far cry from any standard of practice a sane home inspector would offer.

[jhanna1]

Bill,
I would also like a copy of the e-mail that you are referring to.
Thank's, Jim.......

[jvillella]

Bill, Joe and everyone else in NY,

Thanks for getting this out in the public. I would like to see a email blast to all NY NACHI members. Bill if you could, I am in your database, please forward the documents you referred to in earlier posts. I need to ensure all the NACHI members in Western New York are aware of this. I was thinking of a topic to kick off the new WNY NACHI Chapter meeting with and I believe I just found it. By the way, I'll let everyone know when a date, time, and location is set for the first official meeting of this chapter.

Let's keep the communication open and follow our Standards of Practice, and you'll all benefit from this.

Again, thanks for the heads up.

[rpaul]

Greetings all.

I have read this post. It is very disturbing to see some other professionals are trying to stomp out the others. I agree with Joe, we need to know our boundries and stay within them. Knowledge is power! That is so true.
I have a gentlement that is a License PE, when I have something in question. I call him and get him involved. An example of a house I was called in for a 203k inspection. As a lady came across the room, I was bouncing a little. I was across the room. I told her we need to involve a Structural Engineer before we do anything else. There was a lot of concerns with this house. Don't be afraid to involve others. All I do is connect the links and then they take over.
That is how I handle things in questions. When I look at anything I document on the physical conditions only. Example: Furnaces- give information off the label, what I physically can see. Rusting, running, and functioning. I also note, rusting in and around the heat exchanger. Too much rust, I personally recommend someone to do an internal inspection of it. I am not doing any engineering inspections just a physical inspection and note what I see not what I suspect. Remember if you do not note it, you legally did not do it. That is what I have always been taught!
As I look at some of these documentation of some of these software selling out there can put us on the line for stepping over the line. Ouch! Another thread. Just becareful of what you use for documenting and you know what you are using. Because it can come back to bite you too.

Rick

[Robert J. OConnor]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

If one was to review the SOP of ASHI and NACHI (as an example), the guidelines as to what is done during an inspection, as to any standard of care, is fairly well defined. The DOS here in NY, in conjunction with the HI Advisory Board, will mandate such an SOP in coming months. Once that is done, the State Board of Land Surveying and Professional Engineering will be hard-pressed to prove anythng.

An SOP really only establishes the minimum a home inspector must ("shall") do, and what an inspector is "not required" to do. It doesn't normally state what an inspector shall not do ... so I don't think having an SOP from the NYSDOS will really have any bearing on this issue.

I assume the company that sent out the letters also offers engineering services at a higher fee to set themselves apart from other inspection companies. The tactics may be questionable (haven't seen the letter), but it sounds like the company is just restating a provision in most if not all HI licensing laws, including the one in NY, that having an HI license is not authorizing the practice of engineering or the evaluation of structural, mechanical, and electrical systems. The NYSED Office of Professions has long held the position that evaluations of those systems constitutes the practice of engineering, even before HI licensing became effective. So there is really nothing new there, and my understanding is that the NYSDOS agrees with that position.

Unfortunately some HI's do go well beyond the SOP and provide evaluations of systems, such as the apparent suitability/capacity of foundations and framing elements, which does cross the HI/PE practice lines ... and they really shouldn't be doing that anyway. For example if you observed a main basement girder with (3) 2x10's and 2-1/2" steel columns 7' apart, and don't see anything wrong, it should not be reported as the framing appears to be adequate as thats an evaluation. Just describe what is there and that there were no visible defects.

I don't think New York HI's really have anything to be concerned with as long as they are sticking with the principal of performing visual observations and just reporting any noticeable material and installation defects, without offering an evaluation ... "Observe & Report" ... thats the job ...

JMO & 2-nickels (as an HI & PE also) ...

[Robert J. OConnor]

P.S. It has also often been a mostly unwritten rule that a licensed master plumber or licensed master electrician can perform evaluations and layouts for residential plumbing and electrical systems where the total cost is less than $10,000 if done in accordance with prescriptive building codes ... which seems to make sense to me. Commercial systems are a whole different ballgame.

[Leonard E. Ungar]

Hi! Rob;
Give me your fax # and I will fax you a copy of the letter that I recieved.
Len