Asbestos

[rwand1]

.... but are they sanding and cutting, or just placing siding over the asbetos, thats the question....

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by rwand1

.... but are they sanding and cutting, or just placing siding over the asbetos, thats the question....

Are they not banging in hardware, causing the asbestos dust to float?

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

I wonder how much is too much I spent two summers may till October putting in Transite pipe and all the tapers where turned by hand .
We where in the dust all day ever day.
This was in the mid fifties and no one new asbestos was not healthy.
I did lots of water heaters with asbestos. blankets and mixed it up to go on top.
Worked on many boilers in the early sixties.
Not a smoker I wonder was it not smokers who got hit the hardest with asbestos lung disease
.

Cookie

[Marcel R. Cyr]

A little added info;

Asbestos, the very name makes many people nervous. It’s a hazardous material that can kill; who wants a home with asbestos in or on it?

There is no doubt that asbestos is a hazardous material and can cause certain types of lung cancer; however, like most environmental health issues, a lack of knowledge can cause undo concern in some cases. Over the years we have often had to answer questions and concerns regarding asbestos containing materials found both on the exterior and interior of the home. In this news letter we will be addressing one of those materials found on the exterior of the home, and try to provide answers to the most common questions we are asked.

ASBESTOS-CEMENT SIDING

A little history:

Asbestos-cement products could be found in the U.S. from about the 1920’s on. Around 1940 a construction boom was underway and the use of asbestos-cement in building products boomed as well. Far from the feared health risk some see it today, it was celebrated as a kind of miracle material. It could be produced to look like wood for siding and roofing homes, therefore just as attractive. However, it was fireproof and termite proof, where as wood is not. Because of this, the view point of that time was, a home with asbestos-cement siding or roofing shingles was considered safer than a home with wood. Sales did well, about a billion sq. ft. produced for building materials by the 1950’s

THE DEATH OF ASBESTOS-CEMENT SIDING PRODUCTION:

In 1970 the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) was established. Use of asbestos-cement products, including siding and roofing, continued to grow for another three years. Production and sales came to a crashing halt when the EPA implemented the first ban on asbestos in 1973.
Once celebrated as a wonder material, making homes safer from fire, wood destroying insects and rot; asbestos was now considered a hazardous material.

ASBESTOS-CEMENT SIDING & ROOFING - A HAZARD?

The EPA defines an asbestos containing material as a potential hazard when it becomes "friable." Friable means the asbestos containing material can be crumbled, pulverized, or reduced to powder by hand pressure. In this condition, the asbestos fibers can be released into the air and breathed in, which of course is the hazard to our health.
With any asbestos containing material, the EPA recommends that if it is in good condition (not friable), the best thing to do is to LEAVE IT ALONE. Removing or covering it creates a greater potential for the release of asbestos than leaving it untouched when in good condition.
The fortunate thing about asbestos-cement products like siding and roofing shingles, is that it is typically not in a friable condition. The cement binds the asbestos fibers together and prevents release of the asbestos. This is not to say asbestos-cement products cannot be a hazard. It can become a hazard if severe deterioration disturbs the asbestos. Improper handling such as chipping, grinding, sawing, scrapping, or sanding can also release asbestos, creating a hazard.
So what do you do if you have damaged asbestos-cement siding or roofing and you want to repair it, or side over it, or re-roof your home?

PAINTING:
Hairline cracks can often be repaired by inserting a clear epoxy into the crack. Epoxy will not last for ever. Over time it will loose its effectiveness due to Ultra Violet Rays. For cracks that are a little larger, portland cement mixed to a flowing consistency is recommended.

REPAIR:
Hairline cracks can often be repaired by working a clear epoxy into the crack Epoxy will not last for ever. Over time it will loose its effectiveness due to UV. For cracks that are a little larger, portland cement mixed to a flowing consistency is recommended.
When the siding is actually broken and pieces are missing, then the damaged sections should be replaced (see below for disposal of damaged sections). Since asbestos-cement is no longer manufactured in the U.S. a substitute must be found. According to an article provided to us by both the EPA and the CT Dept. of Public Health, some materials have been manufactured to replicate asbestos-cement building components such as non-asbestos reinforced cement, fiberboard with asphalt, metal and vinyl. However, we do not believe these are easily found and some searching may be required.
SIDING OVER ASBESTOS-CEMENT SIDING WITH VINYL:
You are allowed to side over asbestos-cement siding, it does not have to be removed. Remember, removal is the last option because this is where the greatest potential to create a hazard exists. A covering of insulation board should be applied first, than the vinyl siding can be installed over

Sometimes removal of asbestos-cement products are necessary. While siding over asbestos-cement siding is preferred there may be times when its removal is warranted. Asbestos roof shingles should not be roofed over. When it is time to re-roof, the asbestos-cement shingles will have to be carefully and properly removed and disposed of.
The Federal government has no regulations on this subject. The State of Connecticut has no laws prohibiting a homeowner or general contractor from removing asbestos-cement siding or roofing as long as they follow these provisions:

• The asbestos-cement material must be disposed as asbestos waste. Waste must be adequately wet, double bagged, labeled with generator name (person doing the removal), and site address. A licensed waste hauler must be used to haul the asbestos. All asbestos waste is sent out of the state.
• Power tools cannot be used – because no cutting, sanding, abrading is permitted.
• A layer of 6-mil polyethylene sheeting should be installed or placed on the ground around the foundation of the building, so that when pieces fall, you will not have to remove soil, just roll up the poly, to contain the asbestos.
• When removing material higher than 15 ft. A chute must be used which is terminated at a covered waste trailer.

The Marvin H. Schaefer Inspection Service is providing this information in hopes of answering the many questions we have received over the years concerning asbestos-cement material. This does not mean we are endorsing the use of these methods to anyone who is not skilled enough to handle this material properly. We cannot determine your own skill level; therefore if you decide to implement any methods mentioned in this newsletter, you do so at your own risk.
WARNING:

This newsletter contains information provided by government agencies such as the EPA and the CT Dept. of Public Health.
It was represented to us by an EPA official that there are no Federal laws concerning removal or maintenance of asbestos-cement material. Because of this we were refereed to the CT. Dept. of Public Heath. They indicated to us that home owners can repair, or remove asbestos-cement material provided certain safety precautions are applied. There are however, State regulations for the disposal of this material (see above).

Although the public may perform these home repairs and improvements, it should be understood that some risk is involved. If you are not absolutely sure you are able to perform these activities safely, you should contact a qualified professional to do them for you.The information contained on this page is not exhaustive and is meant to be only an overview. For complete documentation on this subject please contact local or State heath officials.


I installed and repaired all kinds of this siding when a kid working with my father, he died of a stroke at 60 with a heart an lung stronger than a horse and I am still alive.
We are here to recognize the hazard and to make sure that we do not condone it's removal or handling by the potential buyers of property that may contain such material.
At best, it would be wise to always advise Clients to encapsulate or have it professionally removed.
As far as Contractors installing vinyl siding over it, we can always hope they have been educated in it's matrix and hazard to comply with OSHA regulations.

Hope this helps some.

Marcel







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[Peter C. Russell]

I think I would be more concerned with the installation of fiber cement siding, which is used quite often now, than installing vinyl over asbestos.

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Originally Posted by prussell

I think I would be more concerned with the installation of fiber cement siding, which is used quite often now, than installing vinyl over asbestos.

You are correct Peter;

Since most Contractors in the Residential Arena are not quite informed on safety procedures as should be, the hazards of working with this Product surely exist.
Actual lung injury from acute exposure is rare but possible.

Chronic inhalation from cutting and sawing of this material repeatedly or prolonged overexposures to dust containing crystalline Silica may result in chest pain, difficulty breathing, lung damage and silicosis. Silicosis is the permanent deposition of Silica in lung tissue which may result in lung damage.
There may exist a relationship between silicosis and certain cancers.

So no matter what products we work with, just wait 30 years or so and find out if it is a hazard to our health as is asbestos.

Kind of scary isn't it?

Marcel
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[Peter C. Russell]

Originally Posted by mcyr

You are correct Peter;

Since most Contractors in the Residential Arena are not quite informed on safety procedures as should be, the hazards of working with this Product surely exist.
Actual lung injury from acute exposure is rare but possible.

Chronic inhalation from cutting and sawing of this material repeatedly or prolonged overexposures to dust containing crystalline Silica may result in chest pain, difficulty breathing, lung damage and silicosis. Silicosis is the permanent deposition of Silica in lung tissue which may result in lung damage.
There may exist a relationship between silicosis and certain cancers.

So no matter what products we work with, just wait 30 years or so and find out if it is a hazard to our health as is asbestos.

Kind of scary isn't it?

Marcel
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Marcel you hit the nail on the head, sorry about the pun.

The problem is that wearing face masks are uncomfortable for long periods of time so most guys wont wear them.

Insulators and sheet rockers are two very good examples.

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

More on this subject.......... Cookie

http://www.contracostatimes.com/real...ews/ci_6381712


BARRY STONE: INSPECTOR'S IN THE HOUSENo evidence asbestos ceilings pose a dangerContra Costa Times
Contra Costa TimesArticle Launched:07/15/2007 03:06:55 AM PDTQ: According to my home inspector, the popcorn ceilings in the home I'm buying have about 3 percent asbestos. He said this is not a problem, but I'm concerned. Now I realize that I've been exposed to asbestos in many of the homes in which I've lived. So I'm trying to absorb this news without letting it depress me. How do I reassure myself that these ceilings are OK? I have two young sons who are active. What if they throw balls and things against the ceilings? What if they stand on their bunk bed and scrape the ceiling? How can I live with the knowledge that all this asbestos is hanging over our heads?
A: Don't be overly alarmed about asbestos ceilings. High anxiety over residential asbestos is common, given the many scary articles that have been published over the past 30 years. Asbestos panic is inconsistent with the actual level of risk posed by asbestos-containing materials such as acoustic "popcorn" ceilings.
All of the studies that connect asbestos exposure with lung disease involve people who have worked with asbestos in a full-time professional capacity, either manufacturing or installing asbestos products. It has never been proved that low-level exposures in a home cause health problems. Fear and worry over asbestos-containing materials in a home are therefore unwarranted.
Levels of 1 percent to 3 percent of asbestos are often found in acoustic ceilings installed prior to 1980 and in some homes built through the mid-1980s. Fortunately, the asbestos fibers in popcorn ceilings are not released unless the material is disturbed. One way to decrease the likelihood of fiber release is to have the ceilings thoroughly spray-painted. Paint seals the particles that comprise the textured surface, fusing them into a unified crust that is much less likely to crumble when touched, scraped, or impacted by indoor ball playing or by romping on the upper bunk.
Additionally, there are many acoustic ceilings that do not contain asbestos, and home inspectors should not make quantitative statements about asbestos content unless a written report from an asbestos test lab is available. To specify that a ceiling may contain a particular amount of asbestos, without a report to substantiate that disclosure, is professionally inappropriate for a home inspector.
Before assuming that the ceilings in a particular home contain asbestos, send three random samples of the material to an EPA-certified lab for testing. If the results are positive and you decide to remove the ceiling texture, contact a licensed asbestos abatement contractor for a bid.
In recent years, many homeowners have removed acoustic ceilings for purposes of cosmetic renovation, not because of concern over asbestos. But when confronted with the high cost of asbestos removal, some have opted to cover the ceilings with a second layer of drywall. Those who take this approach should be aware, however, that disclosure will be necessary when the home is eventually sold. Otherwise, an unsuspecting future owner could contaminate the interior of the home when demolishing a ceiling that contains concealed asbestos. For further information regarding residential asbestos, check the Web site of the Consumer Products Safety Commission at http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PUBS/453.html. Barry Stone is a certified building inspector and nationally syndicated columnist based in San Luis Obispo. Write him via http://www.housedetective.com.

[Caoimhín P. Connell]

Hello Gents:

I haven’t read the entire thread, but I would just like to comment on Marcel’s observation:

“…just wait 30 years or so and find out if it is a hazard to our health as is asbestos.”

Although there may be that impression that toxicologists are “discovering” for the first time, hazards associated with normal everyday items, that is not really the case.

Take Marcel’s example of asbestos- the hazards associated with asbestos have been known for millennia (the things we call “asbestos” are naturally occurring materials) and the health hazards of asbestos were described in detail in the first century AD by Pliny the Elder and again in 1556 by the German scholar, Agricola, and again in 1700 by Bernardo Ramazzini. There is nothing new about the knowledge that exposure to asbestos could be lethal and agonizing (I've worked on many asbestos cases and personally seen the horror of pleural and peritoneal mesothelioma, and the debilitation of asbestosis).

What changed over the years was the human concept of risk and benefit. 2,000 years ago when slaves and prisoners worked the mines, and performed other dangerous jobs, it didn’t really matter to polite society as a whole that the slaves were dying off from white lung disease.

Indeed, sixty years ago when our industrial strength in human resources were returning from “no man’s land” a necessary mad house of bullets, gas and disease that served as the arena to stop madmen, our concept of risk vs. benefit favored the installation of asbestos – EVEN THOUGH WE KNEW OF ITS HAZARDS while it was being applied.

That was the risk v. benefit analysis then, and that “risk vs. benefit” equation is what is changing now – and is changing differently for different societies.

Thus, if you are an adult in a 3rd world country, and you weight 65 pounds, and watched three of your children die from starvation before they attained 5 years old, since insects have routinely devoured your crops – and those who survived will soon be dead from malaria- you may be just a little miffed with the narcissism of a foreign society who has banned your use of DDT, since due to their risk vs. beneift analysis, they are concerned that the compound may weaken the shells of certain birds. Considering that those who banned your life-sustaining insecticide, already reaped huge benefit from it’s use in their own country and, as a result, probably have more food in their kitchen at any one time than you will see in six months – you probably may see some irony (and not just a little hypocrisy) in learning that some musicians, famous in those same countries, just spent a couple of million dollars to stage a “Food for the World Concert” to raise thier own public profile and a little money intended to send you a gratuitous pittance of rice … again.

If you were that 65 pound starving human and in charge of your society, you would probably have a slightly different risk vs. benefit when comes to ascertaining the relative risk of certain insecticides such as DDT.

Other examples bounds (Alar, saccharine, radon, second hand cigarette smoke, nuclear energy, etc.) in each case, the result of the risk v benefit evaluation may not have been based on science, but rather on societal perceptions and self interests.

Now, I’ll just climb down off my soap box… and allow folks to throw stones if they would.

Cheers...
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

[Allen L. Catterton]

Like Doug, I see a lot of older homes with the cement asbestos siding as the primary exterior wall covering. The home I grew up in had the same siding on it. In its time it was considered an innovative building material that would not rot or burn. I always inform my clients that the siding likely contains asbestos but allow them to determine if they choose to purchase the home. A secondary issue with cement asbestos exterior shingles is the disposal of the materials when or if they are removed. That in it self can become a major cost of the renovation. You can’t legally take it to the dump or land fill and it has to be destroyed under controlled conditions. Big $$.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by Caoimhín P. Connell

............. you would probably have a slightly different risk vs. benefit when comes to ascertaining the relative risk of certain insecticides such as DDT.

Other examples bounds (Alar, saccharine, radon, second hand cigarette smoke, nuclear energy, etc.) in each case, the result of the risk v benefit evaluation may not have been based on science, but rather on societal perceptions and self interests.

Now, I’ll just climb down off my soap box… and allow folks to throw stones if they would.

Cheers...
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist
www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

And all influenced by the environmentalists, lawyers, media, politicians and special interest groups with their own agendas. Actual science often has very little to do with what happens.

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

It's not just a health issue, which as has already been said, not as bad as many, but it's a re-sale issue, an insurance issue and a matter of how the dangers of asbestos are percieved by potential buyers (when your buyers sell) and insurance companies.