Cracked shingles

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by badair

what some don't get is every time one of us gets a red for disapproval another 10 come along and give us a green for approval.

overall ratings increase so their act backfires.

Cookie,

If your gonna be pea let it be green, from me

Thanks I do not complain here or post it here if I get a red and the person gives there name .
I take it under advisement and see if I agree with them and that I should not have made that post .
If that is the case I do go back and apologize.
If not I let the person Know that I guess we have to agree to disagree.
Never hold bad feelings for more then 30 seconds just move on.
I have given reds and signed my name
It is those who hide that I feel sorry for .
No way do we all have to agree ,a good discusion gets lots of ideas and this is why NACHI is a winner all the time

.... Cookie

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

This might have been posted before but it still is a good read .
.... Cookie

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...oduct/0710roof

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by rcooke

This might have been posted before but it still is a good read .
.... Cookie

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...oduct/0710roof

Thanks, Roy. A current article- Oct/07. This guy's been doing his homework. We've had a few emails back and forth about some issues in the last year or so. You can follow a series of JLC "Q&A" articles on attic moisture/ventilation for free.

Here's an example of a question:

"I've been a builder for more than 20 years and have come across my first serious mold problem — in my own home in Maine. The house was for sale and under contract pending a building inspection. The inspection revealed mold growth on one entire underside of the roof sheathing (the other side was not affected). The home has adequate soffit-to-ridge ventilation, and no signs of bath ventilation failure or roof leaks. However, there is a lake 75 feet away to the north, on the affected side. Could this be the cause? Can I remove the mold myself?

The answer is here:
http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...8cedd3&p=1&q=1


From part of another answer in August 2001:
The real question is, how will the shingles hold up on an unventilated roof deck? They might give out a little sooner than shingles on a ventilated roof, but probably not enough to notice. The most important factor in longevity isn’t the level of ventilation; it’s the quality of the shingle. The better brands of fiberglass shingles are the ones labeled as passing ASTM Standard D-3462. If you start with a good shingle, what you lose in shingle life (if anything) you probably more than earn back in energy savings from the added insulation thickness.

At least one manufacturer, CertainTeed, will honor its warranty on an unventilated roof deck, although for a reduced term of ten years (prorated from year one, and with no wind speed rating). CertainTeed has funded a lot of research on the causes of shingle failure, including some long-term studies at university sites in three different climates. In these studies, shingles were applied on ventilated and unventilated cathedral roofs side by side. The research indicates that high temperatures do cut the lifespan of shingles, but only marginally; and it shows that roof ventilation doesn’t have much of an effect on shingle temperature anyway (shingle color and roof orientation are more important).

See the rest of the above article titled
Asphalt Shingles on Hot Decks

http://www.jlconline.com/cgi-bin/jlc...452f60&p=1&q=1

[Ed Fako]

Brian,

You continually refer back to sources which cite the same redundant phrase. I also know that the decking structure, especially products such as plywood and OSB sheathing are more prone to excessive aging creating delamination undue to roof leakage.

Would you not agree that the success of the life of a shingle depends significantly on the structural integrity of the deck sheathing?

If so, and I would hope that you can get past the "color of the shingle and orientation" long enough to view that as a part, an integral part, of a roofs logetivity.

Ed

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by Ed Fako

Brian,

You continually refer back to sources which cite the same redundant phrase. I also know that the decking structure, especially products such as plywood and OSB sheathing are more prone to excessive aging creating delamination undue to roof leakage.

Would you not agree that the success of the life of a shingle depends significantly on the structural integrity of the deck sheathing?

If so, and I would hope that you can get past the "color of the shingle and orientation" long enough to view that as a part, an integral part, of a roofs logetivity.

Ed

By "roof leakage ", do you mean water leakage or warm, moist air leakage from the building below?

Are you insinuating that the delamination is caused by excessive heat? and what temp levels are you talking about?

It has been measured that vented cathedral air temps can be higher than the air temps in an unvented regular attic (Bill Rose, JLC Q&A article). If this is so then should we be building roof decks over vented cathedrals of boards rather than manufactured glue-laminated panels. How will we know when to use one or the other.

I have never* seen delamination in approved plywood without moisture. Just a couple of months ago, I saw the oldest plywood I have ever seen, probably 50+ years. It was in good shape. Now our summer temps don't get as hot as Chicago, so there would be less heat stress on materials here. That should be a question put to Bill Rose!!

*( well only once in 1992, but it was an American southern yellow pine type not tested and approved to Canadian standards and there were underdesigned trusses on a 14/12 roof. The house cost $500,000 then and in its first winter. The next summer the whole roof was stripped/rebuilt in 4 sections at a cost of $80,000. I was called in during February by a lawyer to test the wood for excessive moisture, the "believed" cause of the problems (sheathing/roofing materials rippling/delamination). The highest moisture I found was 20% in 1 piece of truss.)

I have had a couple of HI's mention to me about seeing the whole underside of plywood roof decks that turned black "due to excessive heat, causing by not enough venting". For this to happen, the temps would have to be at least in the 300-500 deg range over a long period for pyrolysis to occur and that ain't going to happen (well, maybe with global warming)!! These guys were adamant that it was heat; one guy said he could smell the smoke!! My explanation: if you could smell the smoke and it was all black, maybe the attic had smoke damage. "Oh yeah!!" was the response.

The other "black roof from heat" was probably from even surface mould staining due to excessive house moisture leaking up into the unvented attic. I have only seen one like this. The house was late 1980's vintage which were fairly airtight in this development. This house had an air exchanger which was not functioning properly, keeping interior rh's high hence the more extreme mould coverage in the attic---the air that got up there was more moist than average. That explanation seemed to change the HI's mind. (note: I was quite nervous about calling this one as the purchaser- my client- was the estranged wife of an early LA Law star ($$$$) (or one of the popular TV law programs from the 1980-90's) . She really wanted the house so it took many explanations that the house was not mould infested throughout)

[Marcel R. Cyr]

Wonder if the problem would be with the product itself?

Lawsuits Filed Against CertainTeed Corporation

September 27, 2007. By Heidi Turner digg Del.icio.us Seed Newsvine

Pittsburgh, PA: Lawsuits have been filed against CertainTeed Corporation, alleging the company manufactured and sold defective roofing shingles. The lawsuits allege CertainTeed is guilty of breach of warranty, negligence, breach of contract and negligent misrepresentation because the shingles are deteriorating much sooner than they should be.

The shingles in question are all deteriorating in similar patterns including cracking, curling, cracking, pitting, leaking, blistering, balding and degranulation. Cracking occurs when the shingles crack down the middle, making a home vulnerable to water damage. Curling occurs when shingles curl around the edges, which can also lead to water damage. Degranulation occurs when the tiny pebbles on the shingles fall off the shingles and into the house's gutters. All problems noted in the lawsuits can result in damage to a person's home.

Although CertainTeed's shingles are covered by a 25-year warranty, in many cases homeowners may have lost their papers or homes have been sold and paperwork not transferred. Furthermore, the warranty likely only covers a portion of the cost of new shingles because most roofing warranties are prorated and do not cover the cost of labor. Customers with defective shingles could be out a lot of money if their shingles fail after ten years or more. In such cases, the warranty might only cover a few hundred dollars for a job that could easily cost thousands of dollars.

Plaintiffs in a class action lawsuit can recover not only the full price of new shingles but also any associated labor costs plus any damages caused by defective shingles.

Lawsuits filed against CertainTeed, allege that the company "maliciously concealed or suppressed the facts" about its shingles, with the intention of defrauding customers. Furthermore, the lawsuits argue that homes in similar areas that have the same brand of shingle are all experiencing the same problems. Plaintiffs allege that CertainTeed failed to properly test its shingles before selling them. They also claim that the company was aware of premature deterioration of the shingles but continued to sell them and neither recalled the shingles nor informed the public of their problems.

The defective shingles have resulted in damage to roofs, wallboard, walls and ceilings, plaster and underlying felt. The shingles have been sold under a number of brand names including Horizon, Hallmark, CertainTeed, and Independence.

CertainTeed shingles come with a 25-year warranty; however, many homeowners say their shingles are falling apart after only 12 years. The Horizon Shangle, one of the defective shingles, is an "organic" shingle made with cardboard covered by asphalt. Newer shingles now use a fiberglass core.

One company, Pacific Coast Building Products, which formerly manufactured CertainTeed shingles, agreed to settle a lawsuit filed by the Washington state attorney general by reimbursing customers who bought Horizon Shangles. Complainants in that case noted that the shingles cracked and curled but the company did not fix the problem.

Roofs can be very expensive and when people roof their homes, they do not expect to have to redo the job in the near future. Although defective shingles are likely covered by a warranty, that warranty will only cover a fraction of the cost of replacing the shingles. A lawsuit may be the only way to recover the cost of the defective shingles and the full cost of installing the new shingles.

CertainTeed Legal Help

If you are a homeowner, commercial building owner or represent a homeowner's or town home association and have suffered damages in this defective shingle case, please contact a lawyer involved in a possible [CertainTeed Lawsuit] who will review your case at no cost or obligation.

Marcel

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Originally Posted by mcyr

Wonder if the problem would be with the product itself?

Lawsuits Filed Against CertainTeed Corporation

One company, Pacific Coast Building Products, which formerly manufactured CertainTeed shingles, agreed to settle a lawsuit filed by the Washington state attorney general by reimbursing customers who bought Horizon Shangles. Complainants in that case noted that the shingles cracked and curled but the company did not fix the problem.

Marcel

From my post #7:

"Can't tell for sure but these shingles look a bit like the Certainteed "Shangle" that had premature failure."

Shingle quality has been mentioned numerous times by various authors. With oil being so high, some have suggested "fillers" in place of asphalt!!

[Ed Fako]

Brian, due to an insurance restoration job I just completed, I created a forum board with an easy to use photo resizer and uploader.

This made it easier for the insurance adjuster to stay on top of things. Also, if you want the entire run down of this scenario, it is posted on www.catadjuster.org in the General forum, titled something like; 2 lyr Roof T.O., Storm Damage Repairs.

Here is the link to the exact thread: http://www.catadjuster.org/Forums/ta...c/Default.aspx

This job, although having additional work, will show commonly found mold on the under side of the decking and the extent of delamination that occurs to aged plywood from a lack of proper ventilation. The pictures of the mold on the bottom of the plywood decking are "Commonly" found on many homes on roofs we are replacing.

There is only one job inserted into the forum, so you can quickly browse through the entire job progression photos.

For any that you are particularly interested in, just click on it to enlarge to full screen.

Here is the link to the entire photo forum regarding this recent project:

http://rightwayroofing.freeforums.org/index.php

Ed

[scorcoran]

Oh Dale... please sir... please you're always so helpful and intelligent.. please don't discuss Canadian weather. First of all, it gets as hot as hell here. For probably 5 months of the year. I have never inspected an igloo nor do we have any police riding horses wearing red coats where I live. Yes, if you visit Toronto in the winter you will find a cold climate... Come in the summer and we're pleanty hot. Yes, it't not as hot year round as Arizona, but believe me... it gets hot!

That being said, I don't disagree that it's a manufacturers defect rather than a venting issue but hey.. I just wanted to stress Canada isn't quite like Hollywood would have you believe!

[Kenton H. Shepard, CMI]

I logged on hoping to help with a roofing problem, but there appears to be no questions here.