Shingle disintegration question

[ekartal6]

Joe,

It's not the amount of air coming into the attic. It's the pressure working against proper airflow when you have multiple intake locations. I'm going to read further for my own education. But I believe this to be correct.

[ekartal6]

Brian,

I'm sorry but for the life of me I cannot understand why your source would believe that a poorly vented attic in blistering heat would not have a negative impact on asphalt shingles.

[Ed Fako]

"Shangles" is the trademarked name Certainteed gives to ALL of their architectural design shingles.

The "Horizon" Shangle is one product I have personal knowledge regarding class action status.

The "Hallmark" Shangle would not surprise me, if it too was in the same legal bind, but I am not aware of that currently being the case.

I am quite familiar with the study regarding color and orientation you provided, and assimilate as many of both, the pros and cons on the side of the argument as I can, if for anything else, at least to expand my own knowledge of the topic, to enable a better judgement to be made for what specifications need to be made for varying conditions.



But!

The manufacturers warranty still takes precedence, (although I am aware of at least one court case which utilized the manufacturers suggestions made via marketing materials, whereby the statements made in that material outweighed the actual written warranty verbage,), so therefor, I still defer to doing things as they are required to be done and then provide additional specifications to exceed those specifications, if I deem necessary.

Ed

P.S. Good discussion though.

P.S.S. After further reading, I would also like to comment that the manufacturers of roofing shingle products and auxilliary materials which work hand in hand, cite that over 90 % of all shingle roofs installed are not installed correctly, therefor negating the manufacturers long-term warranty. There are also statistics compiled by GAF and other sources, that the averager life span of a shingle roof is between 12 years to 15 years. If as they have stated that over 90 % of all shingle roofs are either inadequately ventilated or installed improperly, then the short duration life cycle does not surprise me in the least. This coincides with my 29 years in the roofing trade and 23 years of operating my own roofing contracting company.

Ed

[Brian A. MacNeish]

Ed:
"Most of the "Scientific" studies take place in model like, un-real world situations."

It appears that you don't like science. If it weren't for science, most of us would not be here now.

About 12 miles from my house is a siding manufacturing plant (pressed paper hardboard- like Masonite). It has south facing samples set up so as to be perpedicular to the hottest summer sun and harshest UV light in a marine salty environment- if that's not a harsh test, what is??

The scientific studies that improve building science knowledge are not coming out a single place......US Army Corps of Engineers, NAHB, Building Science Corp, US Lung Association, U. of Mass., DOE, Canadian Natioanal Research Council, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corp., U of Illinois .......the list goes on and on.

You all should read past copies of Energy Design Update and a few other leading edge rags. Although I don't have a degree, 15 years ago, I beat out local engineers, architects, municipal inspectors, etc for the job of writing and enforcing the energy regs of the province I reside in now. (and I was from outside the province.) Later, 2001-2, I was hired to replace a building scientist at the local architectural faculty who was taking a 2 year leave of absence to do his Phd. (building science) at MIT. How could I do that? those mags plus a few other courses, seminars!!!!

[Ed Fako]

Totally untrue. Scientific studies are imperative, meaningful, but may produce varying results, dependant upon the bias of the researched results and for whom the research is being done for and financed by.

In the absence of waiting 15, 25 or 50 years to see actual results of product failure and success, assimilations must be done and conditions must be regulated, or else, scientific method would not be properly implemented.

My statement is made based on real life experiences, which may differ from yours, if you have either beein installing or inspecting roofs for the previous 29 years also. Your observations may be relative to dis-similar parameters than my own.

As oil prices escalate, I would put forth the suggestion, that some manufacturers have or are using additional "filler" in their asphalt impregnation phase of production of shingles. Product quality is a significant and key component of useful life of the product, but not only does poor ventilation jeapordize the warranty from the manufacturer, I conclude that it has an actual diminishment in the product and equally as significant, it adversely affects the structural stability of the roof deck sheathing which the shingle rely on for their adhesion and dimensional stability or nail hold down resistance.

Ed

[Brian A. MacNeish]

"The manufacturers warranty still takes precedence, (although I am aware of at least one court case which utilized the manufacturers suggestions made via marketing materials, whereby the statements made in that material outweighed the actual written warranty verbage,), so therefor, I still defer to doing things as they are required to be done and then provide additional specifications to exceed those specifications, if I deem necessary."

From a Q&A article in The Journal of Light Construction (August 1998 ), Bill Rose of the Building Research Council at the U of Illinois says:

"So far I find little technical support for the claim that ventilation enhances the service life of shingles. One argument- that higher temperatures cause faster diffusion of the compounds that keep the shingles pliable- makes sense, but the temperature difference between vented and unvented is awfully tiny. Shingle colour and latitude make for make for a much greater temperature difference. In the absence of technical support, I believe that either course of action- venting or not- is viable. Those who vent encounter fewer problems with code officials and shingle warranties. Those who do not are working in the fine tradition of craftpersons who use common sense to challenge accepted wisdom.

Venting has been presented as the key to blissful life service of shingles. My opinion is that service life is first and foremost a matter of shingle quality. If ventilation has one ill effect, it is that it gives shelter to manufacturers who are not investing in product improvement"


Here's part of another study at the Florida Solar Energy Center on an actual building retrofit to reduce energy bills (mainly cooling there):
1) radiant barrier to rafters- Cost: $1100 Saving: $40/year (payback 28 yrs)
2) add ridge vent- $400 saves $5 per year (payback 110 years)

A lot of the street info about attics, shingles, venting has no basis in actual studies but anecdotes and incomplete science from years ago. Similarly, I have a personal list of 85 "Popular Energy Misconceptions" or my other name "The Smoke and Mirrors List" that I've built up over the years of working, studying, training in the energy field since 1977.

If you look into the "Build America" program, you will see that conditioned attics are being built to contain/reduce heat/air loss/gain from HVAC ducts and equipment located in those attics. To do this they spray "Icynene" or similar to the roof sheathing/rafters and gable ends to insulate and airseal the space. This definitely means the sheathing and shingles should be getting "TOO HOT" since there is absolutely no way for the shingle to get cooled ......period. The heat cannot go through the sheathing as its insulated. If venting save roofs, then these roofs should all be failing daily.....quickly.

The same logic applies when Radiant Barriers are installed on the inner face of the rafters to stop and reflect radiant heat from the sheathing outwards. This is back at the sheathing......now its getting heat from both sides- reflected and the sun! Should be getting cooked and the wood charring. (Don't laugh...I've heard it!!)

Anyways getting late here: 1:50 AM

[Brian A. MacNeish]

"Scientific studies are imperative, meaningful, but may produce varying results, dependant upon the bias of the researched results and for whom the research is being done for and financed by".

It appears Bill Rose is not being paid by shingle manufacturers or contractors.

See: http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/mah...gemare_001.cfm This is unbiased info. I was saying this type of stuff in 1983 and this came out about 1998-9. Changes about roof venting, its pros and cons, is changing in hot and cold climates for shingle life, cooling effects, removing moisture from condensation, ice damming.....many changes

[Brian A. MacNeish]

I just re-read the first post.......forgot in one of my posts that the shingles had been identified as IKO's. So that makes at least 2 manufacturers that have some crap on the market. Looks like Bill Rose will be proven right over time. Does anyone else know about this IKO product? It appears to be a direct competitor to the Certainteed Shangle. Is there any litigation/law suit going on? If so, we can forget about venting / non-venting issues; it's going to fall apart anyway!!

[Ed Fako]

Originally Posted by Brian A. MacNeish

"Scientific research may produce varying results, dependant upon the bias of the researched results and for whom the research is being done for and financed by".

The point I was attempting to clarify, was that there is a preponderance of also "so-called" scientific studies, which in fact are very limited views or very one sided tests, which, in my OPINION, can wind up creating results that the party conducting the research will be the beneficiary of the results tendered.

Is this the same "Rose" as in the Rose and Tenewold authored papers on many other roofing related technical papers. From his excellent research and "unbiased" results, I have a great respect for his probing of significant issues regarding the roofing industry. I believe, if I recall correctly, that they have many fine studies regarding Hail Impact to roofing materials as well. I would trust their results to a much higher degree than those of Haag Engineering, who is an in pocket shill for the insurance industry, in my opinion, and some of the resultant summaries they exclaim. For a fuller appreciation of their studies, one must actually read the entire papers and not only the summary of their conclusions. Many are in great conflict with each other.

A point about icyene, although I have no personal on hands experience with it, just readings about it from technical papers and discussions on JLCOnlne.com forum threads, is that, wouldn't that prevent the interior attic heat and moisture from humidity from reaching the deck sheathing and the underside of the shingles in the first place? It seems as if that would be it's application purpose and similar for the under-side radiant reflective barriers?

I am simply, just a small roofing contractor, who appreciates the availability to such a vast array of roofing information and appreciate, very much the articles and research papers you cite and any links you may be able to provide as well.

I will gladly provide you with my new e-mail address, (I am not sure it is updated on this site yet), and also a web site blog address I just started regarding roofing and ventilation discussions. Your information and input would be greatly appreciated.

A final point which bears repeating though, even though it may be a slippery crutch to lean on for the industry, is that, currently, the accepted means to achieve compliance with the manufacturers specifications, regardless of data and research to the otherwise, is that the ventilation standards articulated from the 1942 HUD archives, are still the ones which remain to be enforced, per the manufacturers own specifications. Assuredly, this allows them a simple justification from warranty liability in many or most instances.

I really enjoy this discussion.

The blog site I alluded to is, rightwayroofing.wordpress.com

http://rightwayroofing.wordpress.com/

Regards,

Ed

[whoffmann]

Gentlemen, Thanks for all the input. Overall, a very good discussion. One clarification to add is that the power vents were boxed in and exhausted the attic room through 2 6"X9" louvered grills. I believe the soffit, ridge and gable vents were pretty much their own system. Although there were no baffles in the rafters, the roof sheathing (1X10's) were in good shape and I believe the air space in the rafters was clear. I removed a couple of soffit vents and peered down the inside and all looked okay. I was called in as a consultant on this one and my first thought was "Yeah, the rafters shouldn't be insulated, heat buildup" but after seeing air space and feeling air movement decided "defective shingles". If there had been less damage in some areas I may have gone with heat buildup, but the entire roof was disintegrated. Again, I appreciate all the input and look forward to more. I've learned alot. NACHI RULES, DUDES!!
Wally
ps. pix show sheathing condition (note ridge vent material on left), clear space between insulation and sheathing and (slightly obstucted) view down soffit.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

I HATE THE WAY THIS WEBSITE OPERATES!!!!!! Just lost a long post. I was trying to edit it and change a period to a comma.......whoosh.......into the ether of cyberspace. It's happened a few times now. Sheet!!!

It took 1/2 hour to compose and had a lot of good info in it- websites, leads to early research, etc. I can't afford the time to do it again. Sorry folks

[Ed Fako]

Brian,

I feel your pain.

Why is it that it never happens to a one or two sentence long/short reply?

Here are 2 tricks I use now from not losing my detailed posts which require a lot of thought and research:

1) Just open up a blank page in Word, and create and edit your post in there at your liesure. Once you are completely done, then just copy and paste it into the reply to thread box here. Even if something in cyberspace gobbles it up, it is just a matter of 2 clicks to retrieve the information.

2) Prior to clicking the reply or edit button, highlight all of your content and click copy. That way, all you have to do if it runs away without a trace again, is to click paste one more time.

I was really looking forward to your research and links information, so after you get done being ticked off, please reconsider the efforts.

Here, I'll give you a wink for your troubles.

Ed

[jkogel]

IKO shingles, certainly the interlocking ones sold in the 90's around here, are crap, and the local store here no longer carries them, due to premature failures and complaints. No, you can't get your $ back.
From what I saw with these shingles, the south facing side of the roof fails first, and if the problem was poor venting alone, then you'd expect the north face to fail almost equally as fast. It's the heat on the surface that does most of the damage IMO.
Poor attic venting causes all kinds of mold and moisture problems in the attic, which could evetually lead to rot in the sheathing from the underside, so it still needs to be done right. I could see where badly arranged ridge vents could draw air from one vent to the other but not in thru the soffits.

[Brian A. MacNeish]

"Poor attic venting causes all kinds of mold and moisture problems in the attic..."

No! No! Bad design and construction practices cause all kinds of mould in the attic. "Good" attic venting can sometimes cause problems in attics and I've got pictures to show as soon as I find out how to post a picture.

In the meantime, see: http://www.cmhc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_001.cfm

Another aside: It was reported that Certainteed and maybe Elk have changed their venting requirement for roofs due to the "conditioned attics" with the sprayed foam roof sheathing being used in the "Build America" program. Can't remember where I saw this but will try to come up with it within a few days.

[Ed Fako]

In Certainteeds warranty clauses is where it describes allowing the insulated decking. To be more precise, I will have to wait till I get back to my off ice on Monday.

Elk was taken over by GAF about 2- 2 1/2 months ago.

Ed