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Interior Inspections Contains discussions about the interior portion of a home inspection. This includes stairs, walls, floors, ceilings, smoke detectors, etc.

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  #1  
Old 7/4/07, 8:24 AM
Jim B. Zink Jim B. Zink is offline
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Default Replacing Subfloor

The flooring under the carpeting in our downstairs greatroom consists of 5/8" particle board over 1/2" OSB nailed to the joists (doubtful that the OSB is glued to the joists). The joists are 2x10 spaced 16" OC with a span of 13'-8". There is noticeable bounce to the floor and popping sounds can be heard in various locations as you walk across the floor.

Since we will be replacing the carpet, my intent was to pull up the particle board and install 3/4" TG plywood on top of the 1/2" OSB screwed into the joists. Should this solve the bounce and noise issues? Should I also glue the plywood to the OSB?
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  #2  
Old 7/4/07, 8:42 AM
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David P. Valley David P. Valley is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

The framing and spacing are adequate.

The popping noise you're hearing must have something to do with the particle board breaking at loose nail locations or air gaps. I'd remove the carpet and then walk across the floor to determine what is causing the noise and bounce.

Other than that, there shouldn't be deflection in the joists themselves with the sizing you described. It's got to be air gaps under the particle board.
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Old 7/4/07, 9:28 AM
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Peter C. Russell Peter C. Russell is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Instead of replacing the sub floor perhaps you can screw the existing floor down and then install the carpet, this has been done for years, cheaper and quicker too.
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Old 7/4/07, 6:39 PM
Jim B. Zink Jim B. Zink is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Even though screwing the particle board into the joists MIGHT eliminate all of the problems, I feel like replacing it with 3/4" TG plywood should definitely stiffen the floor more since (1) I am adding an extra 1/8" of flooring (particle board is only 5/8") and (2) the plywood is structurally stronger than particle board, correct? If I am screwing the plywood through the OSB into the floor joists, is there any reason to glue the plywood to the OSB or to not glue the plywood to the OSB?
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Old 7/4/07, 10:25 PM
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

The glue will help eliminate future squeaks.
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Old 7/5/07, 12:24 AM
arussell arussell is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Jim
I agree with Peter & David, 2 x 10's 16" o.c. are more than adequate for that span, you shouldn't have any (or minimal at worst) deflection.
2 things - 1.) I'm curious as to how old the house is. The reason being you described 5/8" particle board over 1/2" osb. I'm wondering why a builder would add thicker underlayment to a thinner sub-floor. If it is newer, one of the flooring materials could in fact be a product called Advantec which is just as strong if not stronger than plywood and be more durable. Item #2 - if you are determined to add the 3/4" T&G, I would suggest going around the entire area measuring doorways, thresholds, heating, baseboard and most importantly where this floor would meet another floor. Although you may only be adding 1/8" inch more in height, that along with new carpet and pad could cause you a whole bunch of headaches.

Like Peter and David said - pull back the old carpet, locate the squeaks, drive several long screws and they should go away.

alan
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Old 7/5/07, 12:50 AM
Jim B. Zink Jim B. Zink is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

The house was built in 1994. The builder used 5/8" plywood over 1/2" OSB in the "wet" areas (kitchen and bathrooms). The rest of the house looked like particleboard when it was installed. How can I differentiate between particle board and Advantec? I haven't yet pulled back the carpeting. The additional 1/8" height won't create any significant problem.
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Old 7/5/07, 4:54 PM
Jim B. Zink Jim B. Zink is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Pulled back carpeting in a corner and looked at register vent - underlayment is definitely particle board. Went under the crawl space and measured distance between each joist. Average was about 16.25 inches with a couple having 16.5 inches between them. There were also two double joists near both ends of the masonry fireplace and the spacing on either side of these was significantly less than 16". The physical measurements on the joists are 1.5" x 9", slightly less than the 1.5" x 9.25" I would expect on a 2" x 10" joist.

Only about 1-7/8" of the joist is supported on the exterior wall end versus 4.5" on the interior wall end. There is room to wedge a 2 x 4 between the foundation and the joist on the exterior wall. Would the additional end support of the joist make much difference in firming up any deflection?

I spoke with an Advantech representative who recommended against screwing through the top layer (whether it is Advantech or plywood) directly into the joist. He indicates this could create torque problems in the floor with the two layers expanding and contracting at different rates. Any comments on this warning? I actually did this when I tiled the kitchen a year ago and then added a 3/8" layer of plywood on top screwed only into the underlayment and OSB, not the joists, pryor to installing the tile. So far I've had no problems in the kitchen
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  #9  
Old 7/5/07, 6:21 PM
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Peter C. Russell Peter C. Russell is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Jim, not sure where you live but Advantech has only been in this area for a few years. I know the screw method works as someone makes a special kit to do this while the carpet is still down. Once you determine where the floor joists are you use special screws that allow you to go through the carpet into the sub floor and joists, once this is completed you take the tool they supply and snap the head of the screw off below the carpet.
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  #10  
Old 7/5/07, 7:16 PM
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Marcel R. Cyr, CMI Marcel R. Cyr, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Peter, you got me hunting again, ha. ha.



Squeaky Floors under Carpet


Can you tell me how to repair squeaky wooden floors that have carpet over the floor ? I have seen advertised on the internet "Mr.Squeeeky which consist of screws that break off after they are screwed into the floor. Do these screws really work ?
I never used this product, but I just checked out their website and I do believe it would work. It only seems a shame to have to pay that 39 dollars for some break away screws.
I would be tempted to try it myself... score some screws, do some practice drilling to see how much to score.. and how well they break off. The last thing you want is the darn screw broken off just low enough you can't get a pair of vise grips on it.. and just high enough that you feel it with your bare feet. Know what I mean?? Anyway. If you are dealing with a floor where you can't get to it from underneath.. then these screws do look like they will do the job. Whether you buy the Mr. Squeeeky set up or try it yourself I would recommend doing the first one in the corner, where you don't walk. Just to get the feel. And when you do it over the squeaks, add some extra weight.... really weight it down over the joist, so it gets pulled in tight. With the threads going through both the underlayment/subflooring as well as the joist, the screw will not be able to pull them all together. So you want the weight on top to do that.


: I have a carpeted floor that squeaks -- but we can't get to the squeak from underneath. How do I stop the squeaks?
A: First you must find the squeak. Then use a stud sensor to find the nearest joist.
Take a utility knife and carefully cut a small hole in the carpet webbing above the joist just big enough for the head of a screw.
Wrap transparent tape around a 1 1/2-inch screw to prevent it from catching on carpet strands, and then drive it through floor and subfloor and into the joist. When it's all the way in, put a little glue on the head of the screw and position carpet back over it.
If you have a number of squeaks, you might consider a kit designed especially for fixing squeaks under carpet. These come with special breakaway screws, a bit and a depth-control device.
Most squeaks are caused when the subfloor begins to separate from the floor joists. The nails squeak as they slide in and out of the joists. To fix these, it's best if you have access to the floor joists.
To fix squeaks caused when larger gaps develop beneath the floor, fasten a piece of scrap wood against the nearest floor joist so that it fits snugly against the subfloor. The scrap will support the subfloor, preventing it from moving down to the joist.
For smaller gaps, apply construction adhesive to a wooden shim and slide the shim into the gap between the joist and the subfloor. But don't force the shim into place; if you do, you'll only create a wider gap between the joist and the subfloor.
If the problem stems from the floor separating from the subfloor, use a short screw to fasten the subfloor and floor together. Don't use a long screw: it could go all the way through the floor.


Home of Squeeeeek No More « , Counter-Snap « hardwood floor squeak stopper, and Counter Snap « headless deck screws.


Squeeeeek No More«for Carpeted Floors, stops floor squeaks from the top of the floor by safely going through the carpet!
<A href="http://www.squeaknomore.com/Squeek.wmv">Click here for demonstration.

As seen on ASK This Old HouseCounter-Snap« hardwood floor screws stop squeaks in hardwood floors from above the floor.



Counter Snap«Headless Deck Screws allow you to screw your deck boards down without having the large head mar the surface.

O'Berry Enterprises Inc. information.

E-Mail
Copyright O'Berry Enterprises Inc. 2004



By gesuesss, Peter, you were not dreaming. Here it is.

Marcel
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  #11  
Old 7/5/07, 8:51 PM
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Peter C. Russell Peter C. Russell is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Marcel! That's where I saw it!! it was an episode of ask this Old House.

I new I wasn't crazy. Sure beats tearing up the 2 sub floors and laying a new one.

Thanks Marcel for the links.

Pete
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  #12  
Old 7/5/07, 8:58 PM
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI's Avatar
Marcel R. Cyr, CMI Marcel R. Cyr, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Peter; how are your jobs going? Anything knew?

How far are you from Eping?

My sister in-law lives there in the boonies somewhere, ha. ha.
Nice place.

Marcel



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  #13  
Old 7/5/07, 9:04 PM
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Peter C. Russell Peter C. Russell is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Marcel, Jobs are up and down this year, lost a few but we are getting by.

The job I had in No. Berwick went south due to zoning, It's gone from a complete second story addition to a vinyl siding job, OH well..

I live about 30-40 minutes north of Epping, which I believe is the center of the universe isn't it? If you know someone there ask them!!!
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  #14  
Old 7/5/07, 9:27 PM
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Marcel R. Cyr, CMI Marcel R. Cyr, CMI is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Peter, if I ever go back to Eping, I might swing by that way just to say Hi. to an Hi. ha. ha.
PM me your address and cell phone, whether it is next year or so, if I need it I will stop by and say hello.

mcyrhammer@verizon.net

Marcel



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  #15  
Old 7/5/07, 9:42 PM
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Peter C. Russell Peter C. Russell is offline
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Default Re: Replacing Subfloor

Marcel, I would be very happy to get together with you. I'll send my contact info. to you. By the way where is Winslow ME?

Pete
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