Ventless Fireplace

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by rray

You'll not find "complete combustion" in any appliance in our homes. In fact, you won't find it anywhere outside of a laboratory. The best I've seen stated is some of the high-efficiency furnaces that are running at 93% "complete combustion," also called "efficiency."

Russel, You are misunderstanding combustion efficiency. Your stated 93% unit still has a vent and therefore not all the available heat energy is delivered to the home.

Combustion efficiency is a simple (and occasionally misleading) measure of the heating efficiency of a boiler. It is equal to 100 percent minus the percentage of heat lost up the vent (called "flue loss" or "stack loss"). The formal methods for measuring flue loss vary by furnace or boiler type, but, in essence, the combustion efficiency measures the total heat energy that is spread through the heating system or escapes from the boiler jacket itself (jacket loss) instead of going up the stack or flue to warm up the environment. Certain factors may place a limit on the combustion efficiency that can be reached. In particular, the need to keep the gases above the dewpoint for sulfur dioxide may be a major factor. Such considerations must be borne in mind at all times when adjusting a burner system.

[Russel Ray]

Hey, folks. The early morning view of the California coastline from the environs of Malibu and the Pepperdine University library is pretty awesome. I'm checking a few threads this morning, and then it's off to the L.A. beaches; perhaps I'll check in at Venice Beach and show those muscle guys what muscles really are (after all, muscle rhymes with Russel . Ms Margarita and Dr Cuervo say, "Hi!"

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Ray

Thank you for proving my point.California and a few other states along with Canada do not allow ventless fireplaces.

I'm not sure how I proved your point, but you're welcome.

California is still working off of the codes from 1997 (B.C.), so I'm not sure the state even knows that ventless fireplaces exist yet. It took a judge's order (one of those activist judges, you understand) to even let PEX into the state in 2002 or so, even though it's been in use in Europe for three decades.

Since I don't like flues and chimneys, I would have no problem with a ventless fireplace, particularly since I already have carbon monoxide alarms in the bedrooms, the living room, the garage, and in the furnace UC closet.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Russel, You are misunderstanding combustion efficiency. Your stated 93% unit still has a vent and therefore not all the available heat energy is delivered to the home.

Combustion efficiency is a simple (and occasionally misleading) measure of the heating efficiency of a boiler. It is equal to 100 percent minus the percentage of heat lost up the vent (called "flue loss" or "stack loss"). The formal methods for measuring flue loss vary by furnace or boiler type, but, in essence, the combustion efficiency measures the total heat energy that is spread through the heating system or escapes from the boiler jacket itself (jacket loss) instead of going up the stack or flue to warm up the environment. Certain factors may place a limit on the combustion efficiency that can be reached. In particular, the need to keep the gases above the dewpoint for sulfur dioxide may be a major factor. Such considerations must be borne in mind at all times when adjusting a burner system.

You are misunderstanding my statement, although maybe I could have been clearer.

There is combustion efficiency and heating efficiency. I stated that you will not have 100% combustion outside of a laboratory. However, in that laboratory, one also needs controlled conditions. Just because one puts an old furnace inside a laboratory doesn't mean that it can now provide 100% efficiency, combustion, heating, or otherwise.

Then I stated that the best I've seen is in the high-efficiency units that have 93% efficiency. Possibly I should have said "93% heat efficiency" or "93% combustion efficiency," but I didn't want to put words in there that the manufacturers themselves don't use.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by rray

You are misunderstanding my statement, although maybe I could have been clearer.

There is combustion efficiency and heating efficiency. I stated that you will not have 100% combustion outside of a laboratory. However, in that laboratory, one also needs controlled conditions. Just because one puts an old furnace inside a laboratory doesn't mean that it can now provide 100% efficiency, combustion, heating, or otherwise.

Then I stated that the best I've seen is in the high-efficiency units that have 93% efficiency. Possibly I should have said "93% heat efficiency" or "93% combustion efficiency," but I didn't want to put words in there that the manufacturers themselves don't use.

Russel


93% combustion efficiency,that's how you proved my point!

[Russel Ray]

I guess I missed your point and am still missing it. Darn beaches and those overbearing UV rays.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by rray

I guess I missed your point and am still missing it. Darn beaches and those overbearing UV rays.

Russel

Think about it,complete combustion we have trace amounts of CO.Incomplete combustion we have higher CO levels.Your quote about having only 93% cumbustion efficiency increases the CO levels.BTW not everyone agrees as to how much is to much,in terms of acceptable levels [parts/million]

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Russel

Think about it,complete combustion we have trace amounts of CO.

I guess one needs a definition of "complete combustion" for our purposes here because complete combustion does not exist in our homes. There is only "incomplete combustion." Now there are different levels of incomplete combustion, which is where we get into efficiency and differing levels of carbon monoxide production. Additionally, we have differing ways of dealing with incomplete combustion, e.g., open the windows, use the exhaust fan, install a chimney, etc., even creating higher-efficiency appliances.

Here comes the sun over the Pepperdine University campus. Will have to check out soon and hit the beaches. I'll probably check in tonight from the UCLA, USC, or Cal State-Fullerton library since I'm sure I'll want to hit the clothing optional beach at San Onofre (under the shadows of the nuclear power plant) tomorrow before I make it home.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by rray

I guess one needs a definition of "complete combustion" for our purposes here because complete combustion does not exist in our homes. There is only "incomplete combustion." Now there are different levels of incomplete combustion, which is where we get into efficiency and differing levels of carbon monoxide production. Additionally, we have differing ways of dealing with incomplete combustion, e.g., open the windows, use the exhaust fan, install a chimney, etc., even creating higher-efficiency appliances.

Here comes the sun over the Pepperdine University campus. Will have to check out soon and hit the beaches. I'll probably check in tonight from the UCLA, USC, or Cal State-Fullerton library since I'm sure I'll want to hit the clothing optional beach at San Onofre (under the shadows of the nuclear power plant) tomorrow before I make it home.

Russel

Go ahead rub it in! In Toronto it's raining,cold.We probably have less than 100 days of sunshine all year long it's allways nice to get away,[somewhere warm]I'm thinking about that right now.

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

Toronto

But I love Toronto, too!

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by rray

But I love Toronto, too!

Russel

I love Toronto I was raised here,I just like to get away now and then!

[Russel Ray]

Originally Posted by mkyriacou

I just like to get away now and then!

As do I. I had not gotten away since I started this business back in October 2001. Therefore, I got away for a month, from 091906 to 101906. Employees were happy and sad at the same time. We cut down on the number of inspections we did, but they all got full pay. However, they really like to work because they love their jobs, and I took that away from them for a month.

I must also admit that it is hard to stay away from my friends here at NACHI. So I sent a spy (Bryan Lynn) in my place. Bryan wasn't treated well, but that's because everyone seemed to think that he was me. Alas, would I ever be devious and try to trick my friends here at NACHI? By the way, Bryan Lynn and I will be working together for the foreseeable future. Bryan Lynn did an admirable job with my company and my employees while I was on break.

[Mario A. Kyriacou, CHI]

Originally Posted by rray

As do I. I had not gotten away since I started this business back in October 2001. Therefore, I got away for a month, from 091906 to 101906. Employees were happy and sad at the same time. We cut down on the number of inspections we did, but they all got full pay. However, they really like to work because they love their jobs, and I took that away from them for a month.

I must also admit that it is hard to stay away from my friends here at NACHI. So I sent a spy (Bryan Lynn) in my place. Bryan wasn't treated well, but that's because everyone seemed to think that he was me. Alas, would I ever be devious and try to trick my friends here at NACHI? By the way, Bryan Lynn and I will be working together for the foreseeable future. Bryan Lynn did an admirable job with my company and my employees while I was on break.

Russel

About Bryan Lynn I do remember him posting that we were mean,I did not read the entire thread I don't know what was said.What I do know is that it is very difficult to communicate effectively with any board.Nothing like talking in person facial,body movements tone of voice,you could very easily mistake someone's intentions as being hostile on message board.Have a great day Russel.
</IMG>

Mario
P.S. It's raining here again this morning,good thing I will be indoors all day.
Taking PRO LABS mold course today