6 breaker exceeded

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

The disconnect needs to be at the nearest point of entrance, whether overhead or underground. That IS your answer. Call it code if you will, but that's what our inspections are based on.

I'm not sure I understand this. . .

Seems to me it should be required since so many are mis labeled.(refering to the subs)

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by kgerhauser

Speedy, Not disagreeing, trying to understand. This code is not clear to me.

Originally Posted by kgerhauser

If the main panel is feeding the subpanel and there is a main disconnect (or 6 throw) in the main panel that doesn't cover the subpanel? Doesn't that count as means of disconnecting?

Almost! If the subpanel is in the same building or structure as the main panel the subpanel does not need to have a main disconnect in the subpanel.

If the panel is in a remote building or structure then the rules for outside branch circuits apply. These are found in Article 225 Part II of the NEC

Originally Posted by rmaday

I am curious, if the logic (of having a sub panel main disconnect) is to ensure the sub panel (in a detached structure) doesn't get energized by someone at the service panel, why wouldn't that apply to a remote (not in line of sight) location?

By adding the two posts together it helps to have a better understanding of what is taking place between the two scenarios.

A subpanel located in the same building as the service disconnect the service disconnect will kill all power to the building and this is important in an emergency situation.

Let’s say that a situation arises in the remote building where all the power needs to be killed. If there is no main disconnect located at that building someone will need to go all the way back to the main building and find the panel that supplies the remote building or the service disconnect. This could be bad in the event of a fire and water needs to be used to extinguish the flames.

What if there was a fault to ground and the circuit needed to be turned off? One could start turning off breakers until they found the right one or if the installation is done properly then one breaker or disconnect could be opened to shut down everything.

There hundreds of scenarios that one could come up with to mandate the installation of a main disconnect at a remote building or structure.

The main rules for outside branch circuits and feeders are;
-A disconnect must be installed either outside or inside closest to the point where the conductors enter the building
-This disconnect must be suitable for service equipment. This will stop the installation of six single pole breakers due to the manufacturer’s installation instructions.
-A grounding electrode system must be installed at this remote building or structure.

All of these requirements are life safety issues and carry a lot of weight. They should be right there with the requirements of GFCI in wet locations in the mind of someone doing inspections.

[rmaday]

I get it now, thanks. The requirement has to do with location of the conductors rather than the safety of who's working on it.

Just read that and it sounded like I was trying to be a smart-***** (which in this case I wasn't) It is up to the sparky to lock out the sub panel if they're servicing it.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by rmaday

read that and it sounded like I was trying to be a smart-***** (which in this case I wasn't) It is up to the sparky to lock out the sub panel if they're servicing it.

It didn't sound that way to me and I felt as though it was a darn good question.

Sometimes it is hard for me to address some questions without getting the code involved but then again isn't this what the Home Inspector uses to back their statements.

[Greg Fretwell]

-This disconnect must be suitable for service equipment. This will stop the installation of six single pole breakers due to the manufacturer’s installation instructions.

Explain that to me? Where are breakers labelled as being suitable for service equipment? I understand the panel has to be. I got into this with "all in one" meter/panels with no good explaination of why any 10,000 AIC rated breaker couldn't be used without more from the utility about AFC. You would never approach that in a residential sub panel anyway.
I think you would be hard pressed to fail a sub panel that was a service rated panel and had 6 breakers in it. I guess you can 90-4 it

[relliott]

I just think code or not a subpanal or remote distrubution panel should have a main breaker as precaution Jeff.
I will not write it up , just opinion

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

Explain that to me? Where are breakers labelled as being suitable for service equipment? I understand the panel has to be. I got into this with "all in one" meter/panels with no good explaination of why any 10,000 AIC rated breaker couldn't be used without more from the utility about AFC. You would never approach that in a residential sub panel anyway.
I think you would be hard pressed to fail a sub panel that was a service rated panel and had 6 breakers in it. I guess you can 90-4 it

Greg there is nothing said about the labeling of the breaker. What is said is that if the breaker is used as the disconnecting means that it has to be suitable for that purpose.
To be suitable for that purpose there are several things that it will be required to accomplish such as the requirement in 408.36(F) and 230.74 to mention a couple.

What you are thinking about when you say panel or enclosure you are talking about the bonding aspects. Even a fused disconnect has a means to open all ungrounded conductor that has nothing to do with the enclosure.

[Brian E. Kelly]

So pool subpanel on an exterior wall near the pool needs a seperate disconnect even though there is a main disconnect on the house?

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

So pool subpanel on an exterior wall near the pool needs a seperate disconnect even though there is a main disconnect on the house?

Yes. If the pool has a panel that is remote from the main dwelling unit it is required to have a disconnect that is rated as service equipment and also an equipment grounding conductor supplied with the feeders.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Not enforced here then.

So I go back to my original response of required in the main panel.

I believe the main concern here is the fire department access to deenergize the house and everything else in one shot. Turn off the main breaker and all is good.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

I believe the main concern here is the fire department access to deenergize the house and everything else in one shot. Turn off the main breaker and all is good.

This has nothing to do with the fire department. It has to do with maintenance.
As mentioned before, it is so that if someone kills power to the panel there is no risk of anyone back in the basement of the house turning it back on.

[Brian E. Kelly]

If you are clever they have locks for that situation.

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

Since my last post, I have spoken to the lead inspector at the state capitol who agrees with speedy and Whitt, if the subpanel is more than 30 amp. However the state inspector that covers my area disagrees. Now I'm really corn-fused.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by bkelly2

If you are clever they have locks for that situation.

Every see one on a residential panel?
Most do not have provisins for locks.
Also, how many homeowners (and plumbers, HVAC guys, etc) have lock out-tag out kits???

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

This has nothing to do with the fire department. It has to do with maintenance.
As mentioned before, it is so that if someone kills power to the panel there is no risk of anyone back in the basement of the house turning it back on.

Speedy, I understand your logic, but if the main is in the garage and the sub is on the third floor, doesn't the same problem exist?