6 breaker exceeded

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

Mike, where is the code violation in a L&A board with 6 breakers and no main disconnect?

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

That is just a label trying to make code. BTW if I read your sticker the way you do that panel can't legally be used as a sub panel because in the same sentence where they say you need a main breaker they say you need to label it "service disconnect" so clearly that is not talking about sub panels.
I don't think poorly worded labels trump the NEC.
I also reject the idea that this has anything to do with your K&T reference or any other ancient history wiring method since the word "existing" is not there. When the code "grandfathers" stuff they say existing.

I knew you were one of those people who said panel labels trump U/L classification. That is pretty silly too. Just because SqD didn't pay to have Challenger breakers evaluated doesn't mean CH didn't and it was the same lab and the same test regimine but you are welcome to an opinion.

Greg
I am being red flagged like crazy discussing this with you but that is okay as long as someone is getting something out of it.

In the 2005 code it is in 408.36 and in 408.16 of the 02 cycle mandates that a lighting and appliance panelboard be protected on the supply side by not more than two overcurrent devices. There is an exception to this that will allow a panel that is fed with feeders not have a main but it is different once the feeders go outside the building in which the originate.

When a panel is installed in a detached building the feeders then must comply with Article 225 of the NEC. In 225.31 the requirement to install a disconnect and 225.32 states that it must be outside or inside nearest the point of entrance. 225.36 mandates that the panel be suitable as service equipment.

Couple the requirements in 225.30 through 225.39 to 408.34 and 408.36 and the rule is simple. A main disconnecting means must be installed in the remote panel.

The rules outlined in the NEC cover every type of electrical installation and are not limited to the installations of dwelling units. The rule to allow six single pole breakers can be used for installations back when a house might have only had four or five single circuits installed or for something like booster transformers for cable, telephone, or even stop light panels or any other panel that would not have lighting and appliance circuits that are found in a dwelling unit.

Even though the word “existing” is not in 408.36 either the rule will allow up to two main disconnects as in this panel.


Pull out the main on the left and it turns off all eight of the fuses and the water heater pull out at the bottom but the one on the right is still energized. Pull out the one on the right and the range is off but the rest of the house is still energized. These panels are no longer on the market either.

Through out this site there are several references to UL Standard 67. It is this standard that requires every panel manufacturer to install a label in every panel dictating which breakers that are allow to be installed in that panel. So to say that a label trumps a UL standard would be like saying UL contradicts itself.
If a panel has the words “use only” then at the time that panel was manufactured the testing of other breakers had not taken place. We must remember that some of the panels we see have been installed a lot longer than some breaker manufacturers have been in business.
The picture of the GE panel you attached should be enough to tell you this much as it referenced 408.16 which is in the 2002 cycle and here we are in the 2008 cycle. Panels manufactured in 1999 will reference 384-16 so and so on. This is why when I see a panel that says, use only our breakers, I know it was built and installed prior to any testing of the replacement breakers.

Now I wonder how many more red flags I will get just because I am using the text out of the codes to explain why some things are like they are?

[Karl E. Gerhauser]

Mike and Greg, I think you guys should play nice, especially since I am even more confused than ever and no one has addressed my dilema. I just read your post, I'm not slinging any reds(I would sign them if I was), I'm just confused.

Since my last post, I have spoken to the lead inspector at the state capitol who agrees with speedy and Whitt, if the subpanel is more than 30 amp. However the state inspector that covers my area disagrees. Now I'm really corn-fused.

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by kgerhauser

Mike and Greg, I think you guys should play nice, especially since I am even more confused than ever and no one has addressed my dilema. I just read your post, I'm not slinging any reds(I would sign them if I was), I'm just confused.

If you will point me in the direction of your confussion I will do what I can to help.
This is an area of great confussion simply because it is one of them rules no one has enforced in many years.

[Greg Fretwell]

OK you win, I give up. I'll be in the butler station electrocuting myself