AFCI Breaker info...Question

[David Nasser]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Knowing what the code says gives you an idea of where to start, David, but you are not limited by them.

Remember that a building code, when adopted, is nothing more than the most minimum and basic level of acceptability to the degree that anything less is illegal. A building code does not indicate that something is "safe" or that something is of any degree of quality.

AHJs are limited and can only observe and address these minimum basic standards. Home inspectors, however, are not looking at the least amount of quality or materials to get by....but what is good and right, and what is not.

Never ever discuss your findings in terms of "code" or you will be made to look like an idiot by contractors and AHJs who freely misinterpret them for a living. Allow them to reign over their mediocrity while you address material defects and the means of improving the quality and safety of the home and its systems.

Thankyou for this reply

[David Nasser]

Thanks everybody for the replies....

[rbrady]

I put this comment in the circuit breaker section of my reports:

SAFETY UPGRADE: Consider upgrading some of the circuits (especially bedrooms) with arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) type breakers to reduce the risk of arc related fires.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Mark Thorman

There is no doubt that the AFCI will save lives and prevent $$$$$ in fire damage. The reason to recommend upgrades is that an older home will be significantly safer with the upgrade at a reasonable price.

My list of recommended upgrades are: smoke detectors, railings, railing balusters, GFCI's, sensors at garage door openers and hurricane ties. I will be adding AFCIs in the near future.

www.MauiHomeInspectors.com

I find it interesting that, even though it is a part of the 2009 International Residential Code, you do not recommend an upgrade to a fire suppression system. These save more lives than your list of upgrades, combined? Why push for smoke detectors when the code required fire suppression system would save the lives and property of all who hire you?

[Mark Thorman]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I find it interesting that, even though it is a part of the 2009 International Residential Code, you do not recommend an upgrade to a fire suppression system. These save more lives than your list of upgrades, combined? Why push for smoke detectors when the code required fire suppression system would save the lives and property of all who hire you?

Our area is still working off the '97' UBC, '91' plumbing and the '99' NEC with no mention of changes in the wind. The cost and abiltiy to easily upgrade also comes into play.

www.MauiHomeInspections.com

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by Mark Thorman

Our area is still working off the '97' UBC, '91' plumbing and the '99' NEC with no mention of changes in the wind. The cost and abiltiy to easily upgrade also comes into play.

www.MauiHomeInspections.com

Are AFCIs included in any of those codes? If not, why would you add them and not fire suppression systems?

[Mark S. Tyson]

I'm your typical tail between my legs inspector because of the advice of council. on older homes I do include a narritive stating if this were built to current standards the home would have gfci,afci etc. etc.etc. Even though I'm 50 years old and do not remember ever hearing of a fatality relating to the lack of a gfci or an afci or a child falling to it's death from an improperly spaced balluster, but cover my behind I do. Soon i will be able to add: keep your eye on Johnny if he smokes a fatty in the bedroom it could activate the fire suppresion system leading to flloding

[Mark Thorman]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Are AFCIs included in any of those codes? If not, why would you add them and not fire suppression systems?

I believe the '99' NEC required AFCIs in the bedrooms of homes effective 2002.

www.MauiHomeInspections.com

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by jbushart

Are AFCIs included in any of those codes? If not, why would you add them and not fire suppression systems?

It's a simple cost issue. AFCI's are relatively inexpensive. It is cost prohibitive to retrofit a fire suppresion system.

[James H. Bushart]

Originally Posted by rbrady

It's a simple cost issue. AFCI's are relatively inexpensive. It is cost prohibitive to retrofit a fire suppresion system.

Wow.

I've read on this board where inspectors will wrongfully report to their clients that two-prong electrical outlets are "ungrounded" and dangerous and should be upgraded to a three-wire system....even though the code does not require it and they tell me that they do this because the safety and lives of their clients are more important than mere "code".

They tell me that if there is something safer out there than what the client has, it is the inspector's duty to recommend it.

Now, you tell me that the cost of retrofitting a fire suppression system in a home exceeds its value, in terms of human life.

This is getting confusing.

Where do home inspectors really stand on this issue....and where are home inspectors simply "pretending" to be experts?

[Michael Larson]

These(fire suppression systems) save more lives than your list of upgrades, combined?

Is there any documented evidence for this statement?

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

The simple answer for me is this - there are "structure protection" systems, and there are "personnel protection" systems.

AFCI's, fire-suppression systems, etc., are structure-protection systems. GFCI's, smoke detectors, guard-rail barriers, etc., are personnel protection systems.

I know we can all make the argument that these are all personnel protection systems, but I'm not going to argue that point right now.

If a structure-protection system is outdated (based on current standards), it's less likely that I will recommend an upgrade, however, if a personnel-protection system is outdated (based on current standards), it's very likely that I will recommend a "safety" upgrade.

[rbrady]

Originally Posted by jbushart

I've read on this board where inspectors will wrongfully report to their clients that two-prong electrical outlets are "ungrounded" and dangerous and should be upgraded to a three-wire system....even though the code does not require it and they tell me that they do this because the safety and lives of their clients are more important than mere "code".

2-prong systems, when used with a 2-prong plug offer very little (almost none) extra protection. The only possible benifit is that the screw that holds the receptacle faceplate could become energized.
I believe that any appliance with a 3-prong plug should be properly grounded, but there is no valid reason (for me) to ground the entire system. Use of a GFCI on an ungrounded circuit only reduces the risk of death by electrocution and does NOT reduce the risk of electrical shock and does not protect against static or surge related damage.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by rbrady

2-prong systems, when used with a 2-prong plug offer very little (almost none) extra protection.

In this case, a three-prong grounded receptacle adds no additional protection either.

If the equipment/appliance does not require grounding, it does not matter whether or not the receptacle outlet is grounded.

[Mark Thorman]

For my business, the recommended safety upgrade is a way letting my client know that the house they are buying does not meet the current minimnum safety standards. I stress that this is typical for this age of home and that repairs are not required. When the fire suppression systems are required in new construction here I will most likely add it to my list.


www.MauiHomeInspections.com