AFCI Breaker recommendations.... All Circuits and the NEC

[Justin Watts]

Hey Guys,
I posted this in another thread, but wanted to make sure everyone viewed it here... Are you guys recommending AFCI Breakers for all required locations, i.e bedrooms, (2008 year locations: living rooms, dining rooms, all rooms non-GFCI protected) ?

Just curous...........
Let me know
Justin

I am sure that realtors, new home buyers, etc. it is going to take some time before everyone is used to the recommendation..... (i.e. GFCI recommendations are widely known)

[Bob Elliott]

I always recommend them.
I explain what they do during the inspection.

[tdietrich1]

No.

I recommend life and safety upgrades like smoke detectors, and GFCI's, but not AFCI's. AFCI's don't save lives they save buildings. I might as well as recommend fully sprinklered homes and steel construction.

I feel a flame war coming on and I have asbestos briefs on.

[Bob Elliott]

If it is important enough to be in present code it is worth a mention.
Due -Diligence

[tdietrich1]

First I am a fan of AFCI's. I upgraded my own panel(1993) to cover my bedrooms. Now that I'm OK with them(don't trip with fluorescent lights and a vacuum cleaner), I will be upgrading to combination types, and expanding coverage to all 15/20amp circuits. I ensure I mention about improvements in the construction and share my story about upgrading my panel, I do not put that in the report. Now with that said....

"Due -Diligence"

Where does it end? I don't do code inspections, and I don't base my report on them. I have a disclaimer that although safe building practices mentioned in my report might have been adopted by construction codes, I do not do code inspections. Now that said, again where does it end?

You recommended AFCI upgrades, but do you recommend ground rods when you don't find one? If you do, do you recommend ohm checks just incase the house settled after initial install? When the plasma TV fries because you forgot to mention it, do you replace sensitive electronics? How about any pre-1986 homes? Do you recommend upgrading to non-lead based solder? On and On and On.

See how this question can open a can of worms with my spew, where do I stop? A good lawyer would do the same to you. You recommended this because of codes, here is your report, but failed to mention this, and that, etc.

I smell too much liablity...

Tom

[Bob Elliott]

I never worry about liability.
I do worry about my clients which is why I do not worry about liability.
Here I will show you what I put in my report and circuit interupter section.
GFCI helps to protect you against shock and AFCI helps to protect against fire.
Does not go in the summry
What does it hurt to add that simple sentence.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by tdietrich1

I recommend life and safety upgrades like smoke detectors, and GFCI's, but not AFCI's. AFCI's don't save lives they save buildings. I might as well as recommend fully sprinklered homes and steel construction.

Though I am not an HI, this is my feeling on it.

Where do you stop........? You can recommend "safety" upgrades all day, even on a brand new house. There IS such a thing as safe enough. Although the #@%* lawyers and insurance folks will disagree with me.
I personally choose not to live in a padded room with no sharp edges. I know, this is my personal opinion, I just feel the need to give it.

Originally Posted by relliott

I never worry about liability.

I applaud you Robert, although I think you are quite alone in this.

Originally Posted by relliott

GFCI helps to protect you against shock and AFCI helps to protect against fire.

Just a note to possibly help you in the future.
GFIs do NOT protect against shock, they protect against electrocution.
You'll still get a shock, you'll just not die from it.

[jtedesco1]

Please read the first two sentences concerning a GFCI.

See this Video:

Split Second Safety

[Barry Adair]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

Please read the first two sentences concerning a GFCI.

I read this as you requested.

What does it have to do with this AFCI topic?

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by badair

I read this as you requested.

What does it have to do with this AFCI topic?

I don't know John.
Mr. Tedesco looses me at times.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by jwatts1

Hey Guys,
I posted this in another thread, but wanted to make sure everyone viewed it here... Are you guys recommending AFCI Breakers for all required locations, i.e bedrooms, (2008 year locations: living rooms, dining rooms, all rooms non-GFCI protected) ?

Just curous...........
Let me know
Justin

I am sure that realtors, new home buyers, etc. it is going to take some time before everyone is used to the recommendation..... (i.e. GFCI recommendations are widely known)

AFCI'S

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by badair

I read this as you requested.

What does it have to do with this AFCI topic?

This is yet another attempt of Joe's to prove me wrong at something. He loves that.
I'm not sure what I said that was so terrible.

GFIs do not prevent shock. Not always at least. They prevent electrocution and injurious shocks.

could prevent over two-thirds of the approximately 300 electrocutions still occurring each year

Installation of the device could also prevent thousands of burn and electric shock injuries each year.

The GFCI is designed to protect people from severe or fatal electric shocks

[jtedesco1]

The CPSC seems to be a reliable source, ain't that right

[rmaday]

I was about to comment that in Illinois we have to report lack of AFCI, but after reading the IL SOP, I'm not so sure...

emphasis mine

Unsafe: A condition in a system or component that is a significant risk of personal injury or property damage during normal, day-to-day use. The risk may be due to damage, deterioration, improper installation or a change in accepted residential construction standards.

Comments?

FWIW, I do try to educate clients about AFCI and suggest they put them in as an additional safety measure.

[Bob Elliott]

Hi sparkys
I know this but , for my reports I like to be basic for clients.
I add tech stuff in a different section.
A recepticle is also an outlet to most people.
I explain , do not go over anyones head to make my self seem intelligent.
It helps protect against death inducing shock, but I am an inspector that educates in laymans terms. Joe you Listening