Bath Fan/Light Hazards

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

1. How are you able to post the images as large as they are, we have some size restrictions?

Ancient Chinese secret.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojm1Xzwlc9Q

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

2. What are your feelings related to safety and the removal of any equipment covers, where the inspector looks for any problems, most of which are posted here showing the images of interiors of energized cabinets, and the panelboards within them?

I immediately thought the same thing with respect to that response, but thought I'd better bite my tongue (or keyboard finger, as it were). Some guys have already seen fit to ding my reputation points, for some reason. I struggle to be as technically accurate as I can.

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

I have two questions:

1. How are you able to post the images as large as they are, we have some size restrictions?

Good question those photos were so large I couldn't see the original text.

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

2. What are your feelings related to safety and the removal of any equipment covers, where the inspector looks for any problems, most of which are posted here showing the images of interiors of energized cabinets, and the panelboards within them?

Joe Tedesco, check the NACHI SOP's, they do address what is expected, without spelling out top it, just when not to. Also it is in the Electrical Education course, if the memory serves me right. So I'm guessing there is an 'official' position on such investigations.

As for the this specific case, I have a nutone, in-fact I seem to only been lately installing nutones. My luck, I guess. The cover of this specific light looks very "YELLOWED" so in hindsight I would say I would have popped it off, because I would want to see if there was an overheating issue. But this is me.

tom

[Joseph Hagarty, CMI]

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Opening panels and such are covered in the SOP for the home inspector, it is part of their requirements and written that way. It might be helpful Marc if you read this information.....kinda will give you an idea of what they are going be looking for and looking at.

However...some do go beyond the scope of a normal non-invasive inspection and the information provided for them is vital.....Your doing fine marc with your explanations....very easy to understand and to the point. The REP system is a total waste...don't get too bogged down with that freakin thing..

http://www.nachi.org/sop.htm

[Joseph Hagarty, CMI]

Copy, Paste

[Paul W. Abernathy]

2.7. Electrical

I. The inspector shall inspect:

A. The service line.
B. The meter box.
C. The main disconnect.
D. And determine the rating of the service amperage.
E. Panels, breakers and fuses.
F. The service grounding and bonding.
H. A representative sampling of switches, receptacles, light fixtures, AFCI receptacles
I. And test all GFCI receptacles and GFCI circuit breakers observed and deemed to be GFCI's during the inspection.
I. And report the presence of solid conductor aluminum branch circuit wiring if readily visible.
J. And report on any GFCI-tested receptacles in which power is not present, polarity is incorrect, the receptacle is not grounded, is not secured to the wall, the cover is not in place, the ground fault circuit interrupter devices are not properly installed or do not operate properly, or evidence of arcing or excessive heat is present.
K. The service entrance conductors and the condition of their sheathing.
L. The ground fault circuit interrupters observed and deemed to be GFCI's during the inspection with a GFCI tester.
M. And describe the amperage rating of the service.
N. And report the absence of smoke detectors.
O. Service entrance cables and report as in need of repair deficiencies in the integrity of the insulation, drip loop, or separation of conductors at weatherheads and clearances.

II. The inspector is not required to:

A. Insert any tool, probe or device into the main panel, sub-panels, downstream panels, or electrical fixtures.
B. Operate electrical systems that are shut down.
C. Remove panel covers or dead front covers if not readily accessible.
D. Operate over current protection devices.
E. Operate non-accessible smoke detectors.
F. Measure or determine the amperage or voltage of the main service if not visibly labeled.
G. Inspect the alarm system and components.
H. Inspect the ancillary wiring or remote control devices.
I. Activate any electrical systems or branch circuits which are not energized.
J. Operate overload devices.
K. Inspect low voltage systems, electrical de-icing tapes, swimming pool wiring or any time-controlled devices.
L. Verify the continuity of the connected service ground.
M. Inspect private or emergency electrical supply sources, including but not limited to generators, windmills, photovoltaic solar collectors, or battery or electrical storage facility.
N. Inspect spark or lightning arrestors.
O. Conduct voltage drop calculations.
P. Determine the accuracy of breaker labeling.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Marc D. Shunk

Ancient Chinese secret.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojm1Xzwlc9Q

I immediately thought the same thing with respect to that response, but thought I'd better bite my tongue (or keyboard finger, as it were). Some guys have already seen fit to ding my reputation points, for some reason. I struggle to be as technically accurate as I can.

NACHI SOP: "Remove panel covers or dead front covers if not readily accessible", so then when they are "readily accessible" the covers are to be removed, for inspection.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jtedesco1

2. What are your feelings related to safety and the removal of any equipment covers, ...The rest of the world wants to hear what you have to say,...

My feelings are that this is a good topic for another thread. I don't want to derail this thread.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

A quote from NOT so long ago...............

In the meantime, I think that an inexperienced HI who has little or no knowledge should stay away from the electrical systems, especially the panelboard.

So I think the HI's are very clear where Mr. Tedesco stand in regards to Home Inspectors going into the electrical panel. It has been well documented in other forums in the past as well as here on the NACHI boards...not to long ago.....in fact.

BY all means...Marc I encourage you to open it as another thread for debate as their are some interestings OLD message board posts that may come to light.

Would love to get your take on the idea.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Would love to get your take on the idea.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

lol.......good response

[jtedesco1]

Electrical Safety

Safety and Health for Electrical Trades
Student Manual
This student manual is part of a safety and health curriculum for secondary and post-secondary electrical trades courses. The manual is designed to engage the learner in recognizing, evaluating, and controlling hazards associated with electrical work. It was developed through extensive research with vocational instructors, and we are grateful for their valuable contributions.

Major topic areas include:

• Dangers of Electrical Shock
• Burns Caused by Electricity
• Overview of the Safety Model
• Safe Work Practices
• Safe Work Environment

January 2002
Publication No. 2002-123 This document is available as 00-123.pdf (88 pages, 1,730K).

Here's a good book for review, study it and learn about the possibilities of an accident and be careful!



SAFETY IS THE NAME OF MY GAME!

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

Marc,

Welcome to the NACHI board. Now for your very first beating.

Are you a home inspector and have you a clue what we do for a living? In a practical sense, the information you posted is beneficial from an informational point. In the real world, however, most inspectors would simply never get on a ladder and remove pieces of the ceiling fan or even open it for inspection. Why would we?

Which brings me back to my initial question. Unlike an electrician working for a contractor or homeowner, we are uninvited guests into the dwelling. We are contracted to perform an inspection by someone who does not own the property.

Our engagement will typically last for a relatively short period of time. In that timeframe, we must move quickly, and cover as much ground as completely as possible. We literally look at around 1000 items in about 3 hours.

So, the bathroom fan thing is nice, but we are typically interested in 1) if it operates, 2) if the venting actually goes anywhere, 3) a visual assessment, and 4) is it noisy when it operates. Your information is useful, but its like saying that we should examine the inside of receptacle boxes, or junction boxes for problems. Or, that we should remove the covers of flourescent lighting fixtures, and axamine the bulb holders, ballasts, and wiring.

And now, the conversation morphs, once again, into questions by Joe T as to your thoughts on folks opening up an electrical panel. Typical.

So, for the very last time to Joe T, and anyone else who doesnt quite get it: Home inspectors typically open up electrical panels and examine the conductors and components found inside. There, I've said it.

Next topic, please; because, you really dont want to open up all those old nasty wounds. Bottom line is that HIs are qualified to open the panel and examine inside. Period, end of report.

The majority of professionals injured in electrical mishaps are electricians. So, maybe electricians should stay out of live panelboards. Ridiculous, you say? Perhaps, but facts speak for themselves. And, before you post some bull**** about training and qualifications regarding unqualified personnel examining electrical panels, please provide statistical data pertaining SPECIFICALLY to HIs getting injured when removing dead-front covers from these panels. Last I hears, electrical inspectors are not required to have been electricians. Yet, they are in the face of electrical contractors from sea to shining sea.

Like I said, we're not going to debate things. If you're not a HI, and are an electrician, you have a bent. Joe Ts leading question raises the recurring spectre that he probably still does not believe HIs are qualified to perform electrical inspections of dwellings. That is dissapointing and disturbing ar the same time.

Dings to your reputation? Start slamming HIs and wait for the aftermath. Based on your high school photo, you look like a nice fellow. Hope I wasnt too hard on you, but we've all seen this before.

Joe F,

I think Marc will be an asset.....he is already showing in his threads that he understands HI's and is willing to help them. He will be an asset.

[bkelly1]

I would also say that most injuries to electricians are not in the residential field as well.

[jtedesco1]

I took the NACHI Online Electrical Training Course, and on the very
first page this was shown in part:
"The home inspector should be especially cautious when evaluating the
service panels, as these are one of the few components that we remove
access panels from, and expose the live components within the panel.
Please follow these basic safety rules when inspecting live electrical components.
Wear protective eye-wear
Wear electricians gloves (600 volt rated)
Do NOT wear nylon or polyester clothing
Do NOT allow your client to get between you and live components
Visually inspect the panel before removing the dead front
Do NOT open a panel that is either very rusted or shows signs of moisture
Do NOT open any panel that is buzzing or arcing
If you decide to remove the dead front, test for stray voltage with the back of your
right hand, or use a voltage tic
Do NOT insert any probes or tools into the service panel
NEVER put ladders up under the service drop
If in any doubt about your or your clients safety:
Defer the inspection to a licensed electrical contractor."

This all makes good sense, and is all about what we should be aware of,
unless the program has changed? Why even, John B, and Will D.
have prepared these types of presentations for our use.