Bathroom fixtures protected by GFCI

[mthomas2]

1) Fan/light in shower. Lens was jammed in place, bezel is partially buried in wall, could not get these loose standing in the shower, and did not want to risk scratching the shower with my ladder.

Fixture is downstream of and protected by the GFCI outlet serving the bathroom's sink (and serving this bathroom only). Can/does installed GFCI protection override the need for a fixture listed for this location?

2) Light is 82" above floor and 51" above rim of bathroom sink below. I don't know of any specific prohibition against a hanging light at this location, but the fact that I can reach could easily reach up and touch it with one hand while the other was on a sink spout or handle makes me nervous. Any specific code requirements relevant to this installation?

[Frank Newman]

Originally Posted by mthomas2

1) Fan/light in shower. Lens was jammed in place, bezel is partially buried in wall, could not get these loose standing in the shower, and did not want to risk scratching the shower with my ladder.

Fixture is downstream of and protected by the GFCI outlet serving the bathroom's sink (and serving this bathroom only). Can/does installed GFCI protection override the need for a fixture listed for this location?

2) Light is 82" above floor and 51" above rim of bathroom sink below. I don't know of any specific prohibition against a hanging light at this location, but the fact that I can reach could easily reach up and touch it with one hand while the other was on a sink spout or handle makes me nervous. Any specific code requirements relevant to this installation?

1)I don't know of any code exception (others may) that makes an exception to the requirement that the fixture be listed for that location.
2) If this arrangement is a problem than every bathroom with a wall mounted fixture mounted right over the mirror would have the same problem.

[mthomas2]

Originally Posted by Frank Newman

If this arrangement is a problem than every bathroom with a wall mounted fixture mounted right over the mirror would have the same problem.

IMO, it's a bit more of problem as it's in easier reach (directly above your head) than a fixture back on the wall. I agree, though, that AFAIK it's not prohibited.

Now, here's the odd thing: the switch for that light is integral to the GFCI receptacle outlet beside the sink, and I assume it would have been easy to GFCI protect that light... and probably still is.

[Jim Port]

Requirements for GFI protection for the fan/light combo would be in the installation instructions from the manufacturer.

Most of the ones I have installed say it is required if installed over a shower or tub. Use the footprint of the shower and extend the plane upward.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Micheal,

Nothing will override the need for the fact the location is considered either a damp or wet location. If it is on the ceiling and not subject to saturation from water then I would consider it a damp location and the fixture that is placed within the tub area would need to be rated for the environment.-410.4(A)

Now I agree with Jim on the manufacturers intent, if the luminare is rated for damp locations ( and let say this is ) then it would also probably have it's own personal provision by the manufacturer to if a GFCI is required to protect the circuit.

Remember we put ALOT of fixtures up outside around a house, they are also subject to rain and moisture and in many cases these are WET LOCATIONS and they are not required to be GFCI protected...so we really have to understand the intent here.

Now....understand that is 2002 NEC®......2005 NEC® expanded a bit and said under 410.18(B) ex.2 now says where no EGC is present when replacement of a luminare that a GFCI can be used in it's place for safety and protection.

[mthomas2]

Thanks to you both.

Paul,

"Now....understand that is 2002 NEC®......2005 NEC® expanded a bit and said under 410.18(B) ex.2 now says where no EGC is present when replacement of a luminare that a GFCI can be used in it's place for safety and protection. that a GFCI can be used in it's place for safety and protection."

Q. Real world, are there actual situations in which this allows you to do something you could not otherwise? For example, during a remodel where rewiring would normally be required, could an electrician install GFCI protection to a circuit lacking an EGC and powering a luminare in lieu of running new wiring?

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Michael,

No, the allowance is for replacement of a luminiare.....if it is gutted and new wiring is run then it MUST have a grounding means present for the luminare. The expections is specific ( as far as the luminare is concerned ) to the replacement of an existing luminare.......you can never run new wiring to a luminiare in this situation without a EGC.

Now the NEC does give allowance to run a individual EGC to a luminare that is not grounded...it is the EX.1 of that same section but is not for new wiring because that section says a ground must be present to luminares.



410.18 Exposed Luminaire (Fixture) Parts
(A) Exposed Conductive Parts
Exposed metal parts shall be grounded or insulated from
ground and other conducting surfaces or be inaccessible to unqualified personnel. Lamp tie wires, mounting screws, clips, and decorative bands on glass spaced at least 38 mm (1 1/2 in.) from lamp terminals shall not be required to be grounded.
(B) Made of Insulating Material
Luminaires (fixtures) directly wired or attached to
outlets supplied by a wiring method that does not provide a ready means for grounding shall be made of insulating material and shall have no exposed conductive parts.

Exception No. 1: Replacement luminaires (fixtures) shall be permitted to connect an
equipment grounding conductor from the outlet in compliance with 250.130(C). The
luminaire (fixture) shall then be grounded in accordance with 410.18(A).
Exception No. 1: Replacement luminaires (fixtures) shall be permitted to connect an
equipment grounding conductor from the outlet in compliance with 250.130(C). The
luminaire (fixture) shall then be grounded in accordance with 410.18(A).
Exception No. 2: Where no equipment grounding conductor exists at the outlet,
replacement luminaires (fixtures) that are GFCI protected shall not be required to be
connected to an equipment grounding conductor.

Now the exceptions as instructed by the NEC® Handbook-

The exception to 410.18(B) provides a method by which a luminaire with exposed
conductive parts can be installed at an outlet where the wiring method is not an
equipment grounding conductor per 250.118 or does not provide an equipment
grounding conductor. In older installations where luminaires are replaced, the
requirement to ground exposed metal parts of the luminaire is not negated simply
because there is no means of grounding provided by the existing wiring system. The
means allowed by the exception is the same as is permitted for receptacles installed at outlets where no grounding means exists. A single grounding conductor can be run independently of the circuit conductors, from the outlet to a point on the wiring system where an effective grounding connection can be made. The acceptable termination points for this separate grounding conductor are specified by 250.130(C).

Exception No. 2 to 410.18(B) was added to the 2005 Code to permit a GFCI to provide
protection for personnel where luminaires are supplied by a circuit that does not have an equipment grounding conductor. This exception provides added protection simila rto that provided for receptacles supplied from older circuits without an equipment grounding conductor. However, it does not allow the installation of a new circuit without an EGC to supply luminaires.

[mthomas2]

OK, let's see if I get this now:

1) Per the 2005 NEC, GFCI protection allows the installation of replacement luminaries at outlets lacking a GECs.

2) This applies to luminaries only. It would not apply, for example, to a combination fan/light.

3) Luminaries installed in damp or wet locations must be listed for use at these locations, adding GFCI protection does not negate the requirement for appropriate listing.

4) As a condition of meeting the listing, a manufacturer may require the installation of GFCI protection, and without the GFCI the listing would not be met.