Bootleg Ground

[Paul W. Abernathy]

OK...we will touch on this BUT then should leave it alone...thehehe...

NEC Art 250.130(c)

(C) Nongrounding Receptacle Replacement or Branch
Circuit Extensions.

The equipment grounding conductor
of a grounding-type receptacle or a branch-circuit extension
shall be permitted to be connected to any of the following:

(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50

(2) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode conductor

(3) The equipment grounding terminal bar within the enclosure
where the branch circuit for the receptacle or
branch circuit originates

(4) For grounded systems, the grounded service conductor
within the service equipment enclosure

(5) For ungrounded systems, the grounding terminal bar
within the service equipment enclosure

FPN: See 406.3(D) for the use of a ground-fault circuitinterrupting
type of receptacle.

As Greg to correctly stated, it is nearly impossible these days to ensure the water pipe connection is a VALID connection point due to the nature of non-metalics being cheaper and well.......he and roy do a much better job of explaining that.....BUT.....the NEC is very clear on how to obtaining the EG connection on replacements to nongrounding and branch circuit extentions.

[ccbrands1]

Thanks for the positive reinforcement, Roy.

Never installed receptacles this way, and never planned to.
I've seen this done...not professionally, of course.
Just trying to stir up discussion.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I am sure Roy means no harm CC........it does concern us "electricians" when people start talking about running a wire here and their to achieve a "grounded" receptacle and so on...but I think the NEC is rather clear on this one...atleast in my eyes anyway....

[Roy D. Cooke, Sr]

Originally Posted by ccbrands1

Thanks for the positive reinforcement, Roy.

Never installed receptacles this way, and never planned to.
I've seen this done...not professionally, of course.
Just trying to stir up discussion.

Congratulations you got me well .
I had a guy once trying to do some thing silly and felt this could be the same thing again .
Sorry if I came on strong but there are lots of people who should just stay away .
Thanks for the chuckle .
Roy Cooke Sr

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Oh Roy....you crazy Canadians.....

[John Allingham]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Oh Roy....you crazy Canadians.....

We prefer crazy Canucks

[smcarthur]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

As Greg to correctly stated, it is nearly impossible these days to ensure the water pipe connection is a VALID connection point due to the nature of non-metalics being cheaper and well.......he and roy do a much better job of explaining that.....BUT.....the NEC is very clear on how to obtaining the EG connection on replacements to nongrounding and branch circuit extentions.

I'll agree with not running a wire from a receptacle to the water piping, but "if" the (NEC 250.52(A)(1))water piping is metallic and in direct contact with earth for 10' or more , per NEC 250.50 you must make it part of the grounding electrode system, as well as installing a secondary grounding electrode, usually a driven rod.(NEC 250.53(D)(2))

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Steve,

The POINT is you have to PROVE it is a valid part of the GES and that is not always the easy course of action.

I very clearly stated the following in my NEC post:

"(1) Any accessible point on the grounding electrode system
as described in 250.50"

However the assumption that you simply TAKE it to the water pipe is NOT the proper course of action here...you must VERIFY it is part of the GES for one...and in many old homes it may be able to happen...BUT not in homes where the water pipe is non-metallic and so on.....which rules out that...

Also I have seen MANY homes where the electricians did not understand the "within 5' of entry" aspect and well.....I have been in some homes where the connection to the water pipe that WAS copper is well over 40'-50' away and NO way of determining the parts of that system located within the wall or what might have been changed or updated due to renovations and so on...and to BOOT....no supplimental as well.

Trust me ...I am very aware of the waterpipe grounding requirement when available.....but in many homes today it is becoming a issue where it is not possible.....thus they would need to verify the GES.....which is why they dont spell out water pipe in that article...simply refers to the 250.50 which is a detailed definition for the GES....and then refers to the methods.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by smcarthur

I'll agree with not running a wire from a receptacle to the water piping, but "if" the (NEC 250.52(A)(1))water piping is metallic and in direct contact with earth for 10' or more , per NEC 250.50 you must make it part of the grounding electrode system, as well as installing a secondary grounding electrode, usually a driven rod.(NEC 250.53(D)(2))

Also...steve I think we are speaking of different things here....please read from the start...the question was on the method to ground a nongrounded receptacle and what methods......not IF the waterpipe should be used as part of the GES.....yes it should..if it is available to be used as such.

[smcarthur]

Sorry, Paul, I did not mean to imply that any of your statements were incorrect. It's just that I have seen the copper water line ignored as a part of the GES on many occasions, mostly panel upgrades, and IMO the copper water line is the best ground that you will get in residential service. And a whole lot better than the ground rod that was sawed off at 4' when it got to hard to drive.
As far as the original post, I've wondered what the best approach is to bootleg receptacles. The only real way to find them is to pull the receptacle out and that's not part of a normal inspection, so what do you guys do when you open the panel and it's a mostly 2 wire system, but all the receptacles are 3 prong?

[jmichalski]

OK - for clarity....

Tons of Philly rowhomes use the water supply from the street for grounding - I have always throught this to be an alternative to a grounding rod, but it appears from Steve's post that this must be done. Is that a correct interpretation?

[jmichalski]

Originally Posted by smcarthur

Sorry, Paul, I did not mean to imply that any of your statements were incorrect. It's just that I have seen the copper water line ignored as a part of the GES on many occasions, mostly panel upgrades, and IMO the copper water line is the best ground that you will get in residential service. And a whole lot better than the ground rod that was sawed off at 4' when it got to hard to drive.
As far as the original post, I've wondered what the best approach is to bootleg receptacles. The only real way to find them is to pull the receptacle out and that's not part of a normal inspection, so what do you guys do when you open the panel and it's a mostly 2 wire system, but all the receptacles are 3 prong?

I often count the ground wires present in the panel and relate to the client that older wiring is present and that three prong outlets may or may not have proper grounding protection. I use a 3 light tester on all outlets (in case they are just 3 prong using 2 wires and the lack of grounding shows up). Standard language about older wiring and potentially ungrounded outlets is included in the report, as is the location of any identified ungrounded outlet.

It sounds like I should be adding an extra line where I find a reverse polarity outlet near ungrounded outlets, though....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by smcarthur

Sorry, Paul, I did not mean to imply that any of your statements were incorrect. It's just that I have seen the copper water line ignored as a part of the GES on many occasions, mostly panel upgrades, and IMO the copper water line is the best ground that you will get in residential service. And a whole lot better than the ground rod that was sawed off at 4' when it got to hard to drive.
As far as the original post, I've wondered what the best approach is to bootleg receptacles. The only real way to find them is to pull the receptacle out and that's not part of a normal inspection, so what do you guys do when you open the panel and it's a mostly 2 wire system, but all the receptacles are 3 prong?

Hey brother...no need for an appology fella....I was most certainly not offended...thehehe.....I LOVE chatting on these issues as you can tell...and I love when members help BRING out educational info...if anything that is why I am here......

You are 100% correct in that I would LOVE to have someone connect to a properly grounded and correctly effective WP ground...just so hard today as greg stated to verify that.

I would simply prefer if they are going to attempt that method that they go to the panel with the wiring unless they can truly verify the connection of the WP and its location and so on....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by jmichalski

OK - for clarity....

Tons of Philly rowhomes use the water supply from the street for grounding - I have always throught this to be an alternative to a grounding rod, but it appears from Steve's post that this must be done. Is that a correct interpretation?

Must is in that IF it is their...IT must be used.......but only if it meets the installation guidelines....10' in earth...and conected within 5' of entrance....excluding the few exceptions.....I wont go into...