Calling Paul or any GRU

[Charley L. Bottger]

I have a C&H panel installed 1995 licensed electrican inspected by local AHJ with sticker posted. Double tapping on all grounds and Neutrals.

My question is are C&H rated for double taps I don't think so but cannot find the specifics. Help Please

[Michael Larson]

Not a GRU(what ever that is)

Neutrals(grounded conductor) are supposed to terminate under their own screw period.

Now is it a hazard? Probably not.
Is it common to see? I see it all the time. I note it and move on.

This new section should ensure that grounded (neutral) conductors terminate within the panelboard to an individual terminal. This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings, but nobody knew it existed. UL Std. 67 (Panelboard Standard) permits up to three 10 AWG equipment grounding conductors to terminate on a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose. Figure 408-3

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage.


408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations. Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor.
his new section should ensure that grounded (neutral) conductors terminate within the panelboard to an individual terminal. This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings, but nobody knew it existed. UL Std. 67 (Panelboard Standard) permits up to three 10 AWG equipment grounding conductors to terminate on a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose. Figure 408-3

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Is it common to see? I see it all the time. I note it and move on

Mike I don't see it to this extent I guess I just don't like it.

What are you doing home anyway suppose to be out inspecting or are you out on a wireless Oh by the way you corrected my spelling so what is a

hazars?

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by cbottger

Mike I don't see it to this extent I guess I just don't like it.

What are you doing home anyway suppose to be out inspecting or are you out on a wireless Oh by the way you corrected my spelling so what is a

Already edited my post several times. See the graphic I added.

Slow day and I have some home projects to finish up.

I going to some training tomorrow and Saturday. Need those CEUs

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Already edited my post several times. See the graphic I added.

Slow day and I have some home projects to finish up.

I going to some training tomorrow and Saturday. Need those CEUs

Gottcha at least on paper anyway Thanks Some times I feel like a long tail cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

[Greg Fretwell]

It seems to be a regional thing. I have not seen a pro do it in Southwest Florida. Handyman/homeowners do all sorts of stuff and nothing surprises me.

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

It seems to be a regional thing. I have not seen a pro do it in Southwest Florida. Handyman/homeowners do all sorts of stuff and nothing surprises me.

Greg,

I see some pros so this often. Their siticker is on the panel and the AHJ doesn't seem to care.

[Charley L. Bottger]

Originally Posted by Greg Fretwell

It seems to be a regional thing. I have not seen a pro do it in Southwest Florida. Handyman/homeowners do all sorts of stuff and nothing surprises me.

Greg this one did supprise me because I normally do not see that here as you stated just the handyman normal stuff.

[wsiegel]

Grounds can be double tapped in certain panels, but grounds and neurtals should never be tapped together.

[Marc Benz]

CBottger:

the way you show the photo it was pretty common in that era.

I will admit it in here i done the same thing too for a while but the codes got tighten up some time back and after that i just ran the grounding and grounded conductors seperated nowdays because there are some percentage it will be used as subfeed box [ it do happend once a while ]

but some area will not allow this type of pratice any at all.


Merci, Marc

P.S. i am loacted in nord-est [ northeast] wisconsin area
i will add this to my profile

[Michael Larson]

This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers.

This is why it was more common before. It wasn't added to the NEC until later editions.

[Marc Benz]

MLarson:

thanks for bring that info upfront about this and yes it was noted in the NEC i think it was added few code cycle back but i am not sure when it was in effect that time [ my oldest code book is 96 ] but i am sure someone in that area can find it to back track the history when it was in effect.

Merci, Marc

[Mike Whitt]

Originally Posted by cbottger

I have a C&H panel installed 1995 licensed

Originally Posted by mlarson

the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers.

This was adopted in the 2002 code cycle when panels was moved from 384 to 408.

Due to the wording that was on the label in the panel itself there was no section in the code to reject the installation such as you have posted.

Looking at the picture that Michael has posted, the equipment grounding bar will accept two #14 or #12 conductors.

In the main panel 250.24(B) requires that the terminal bar for the equipment grounding conductors to be bonded to both the panel and the grounded (neutral) conductor.

This will make both terminals the same and the bare and green conductors can mix on the same terminal bar as the white or gray conductor, they become one and the same.

Without the verbiage that is found in 408.21 of the 2002 code cycle there was no way to prevent the use of any two #14 or #12 conductors landing under one screw.

Prior to the 2002 code cycle there was no verbiage in 110.3(B) that would allow the rejection of the practiced installation of grounding and grounded conductor under the same screw.

(B) Installation and Use Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

The label on the inside of the panel will have the maximum number and size of conductors that can be terminated under one screw. This is the instructions that are included with the labeling of the panel.

In the 2002 code cycle verbiage was added to the NEC that will not allow more than one grounded conductor under one screw no matter what the instructions that are included with the labeling of the panel.
This is why it is still allowed to have more than one grounding conductor under one screw.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by mlarson

Greg,

I see some pros so this often. Their siticker is on the panel and the AHJ doesn't seem to care.

Howdy All......sorry I was at Rehab today and did not see the post.

Basically many are under the assumption that the violation of 408.21 ( 2002 NEC ) is new and just appeared in the 2002 NEC. Factually it has been their since installing the equipment as the manufacturer intended has been around.

Basically UL 67 governs this and the manufacturers have never intended for the Grounded Conductor to share a terminal point with any other conductor.

Now as for AHJ's not seeming to care.......what is actually happening is they just dont know........thats why it appears in the 2002 NEC....to better educate them on it but it has been their longer than that....

So I go around the country doing seminars for AHJ's as well and guess what....many dont know alot of things because some were floor layers, plumbers and so on before becoming electrical inspectors.....nothing wrong with that BUT their is a learning curve that is still taking place today.....

Its all about education for our AHJ's as well.........sad to say continueing education for electricians do not always funnel down to the AHJ's but they are doing the best they can with limited time......what the battle is we face now is making them more open minded to listening to OTHERS that may be slightly more NEC educated than they are....

Sometimes it's a " CHIP ON THE SHOULDER " thing.....

[Paul W. Abernathy]

And I think you wanted to say...."Calling Paul....The Electrical EMU !