CEU class on Electrical

[David C. Macy]

Thought I would share some of the topics of discussion from a 3HR. CEU electrical class presented by a Electrician/Home Inspector.

1) FPE - The problem that was discussed was at the back of the bus bar there was significant scorching. This wouldnt be visible until the panel was removed.

2) SEC can not be spliced inside the panel box. Need to look for cracks at the exterior SEC located at the mast head. Older cloth insulation doesnt have Ultra violet protection. (Both of these I didnt know)

A new inspector was writing up all the spliced connections in the panel box. (The NEC has a long drawn out code for this one) One ispector said if you cant see the nuetral bar it is to overcrowded.

3) All knob & tube shall be reconnected on 15 amp circuits. This is for the re-wire code.

4) This electrician says that the low voltage Transformer & the receptacle below the main panel can be double lugged at the breakers. (Man I have heard so many opinions on this)


5) Ok I will need clarification on this. The NEC changed that the nuetrals & grounds in the main panel are on seperate bars. Before this change there can be Example. 14 gauge ground connected with a 12 gauge nuetral resulting in a loose connection.

6) HVAC guy harrasing the electrician. HVAC says that a home with an electric furnacedraws a 120 amp load and if the home has a 100 amp service can result in some issues???

7) To help indentify aluminum solid wiring the sheathing will have a green color. The problem with this type of aluminum is the connections at the switches/receptacles. Need cop/alum connectors.

My questions from the seminar for clarifications are.

What the heck is a (LOOM-Double cover) did I even spell this right.

There was a discussion that the SEC needs to be 8 feet above the ridge of a roof. I thought it was 3 feet.

Besides square D what other breakers are allowed to double tap?

The best info was that the electricain said that the illistrated guide to electricla code is the reference book to have.

http://www.amazon.com/Illustrated-Gu.../dp/1401850685


There was a lot of discussion on meter bases. He advised to contact the local city.

He also stated that each city can be different where the same city can have different inspectors that can differ. EXAMPLE. General rule. Each room needs at least 2 wall receptacles on opposite walls or as otherwise permitted by local inspection authority ect...

Sorry post is so long. Want to share with less expirenced inspectors.

Cant wait for Paul A. 8 hour seminar in Cleveland. I have at least one newer inspector that plans on attending.

Dave

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Dave,

Let me address a few of the above questions or comments first:

4) This electrician says that the low voltage Transformer & the receptacle below the main panel can be double lugged at the breakers. (Man I have heard so many opinions on this)
ANSWER: personally I still consider this a double tap unless the breaker allows multiple conductors. Would ask for a reference in regards to specifics on a doorbell transformer.

5) Ok I will need clarification on this. The NEC changed that the nuetrals & grounds in the main panel are on seperate bars. Before this change there can be Example. 14 gauge ground connected with a 12 gauge nuetral resulting in a loose connection.
ANSWER : This is not a change, just was included in the latest NEC update because of the confussion in regards to the origin. This was part of the UL Standard 67 back some time and since a panel must be installed in the manner listed by the manufacturer.....it was a violation to double neutrals up......the NEC made the choice to add it for clarrification but it was always their...Article 110

6) HVAC guy harrasing the electrician. HVAC says that a home with an electric furnacedraws a 120 amp load and if the home has a 100 amp service can result in some issues???
ANSWER: lol.....well assuming they can VERIFY the draw is 120 AMPS...but I can tell you....I have never seen a home with a 120A draw furnace and only a 100A service...lol

7) To help indentify aluminum solid wiring the sheathing will have a green color. The problem with this type of aluminum is the connections at the switches/receptacles. Need cop/alum connectors.
ANSWER: Sorry...dont agree with that one, I have seen plenty of aluminum solid in older homes and no GREEN color....but he is correct the problem with AL branch circuit wiring is usually at the terminal points.

Ok...your other questions...

Q:1 :There was a discussion that the SEC needs to be 8 feet above the ridge of a roof. I thought it was 3 feet.?

A: Article 230.24(A)- Does state the clearance above the roof should be 8', but it also has an exception...

The exception is : Where the voltage between the conductors does not exceed 300 volts, and the roof slope is not less than a 4 to 12 ...then it can be reduced to a 3' clearance.

( lets not confuse that with deck clearances and so on...just answering your question fella..lol )

Oh..their is one more exception to the 8' deal...

Where the voltage does not exceed 300V a reduction of clearance above thge overhanging portion of the roof to not less than 18 inches shall be permitted in (1) not more than 6 feet of service drop conductors, 4 feet horizontally pass above the roof overhang and (2) they terminated at a through the roof raceway or approved support....

Those are your exceptions to the 8'

Hmmm...Oh yeah...sorry I forgot........to my knowledge their is no other breaker that is designed to allow multiple conductors but I know that CH is working on one and should be out soon.

As for a good book...sorry I would have to recommend a different book if you REALLY want to learn and understand the national electrical code..since that is what the book was based on that your friend suggested...

I would suggest : Understanding the NEC by Mike Holt Enterprises....CHECK HERE

Sorry....last edit....this is another statement....

He also stated that each city can be different where the same city cna have different inspectors that can differ. EX. General rule. Each room needs at least 2 wall receptacles on opposite walls or as otherwise permitted by local inspection authority ect...

Is he speaking of pre 1974 inspections or CURRENT inspections.......because the only receptacle spacing for new installations that pertain is the 6 and 12 requirement......and so on depending on the other areas of the house like the kitchen counter tops and so on...

[Speedy Petey]

MAN! There are so many mistakes/omissions there. Unreal.
I'm glad Paul took the time to cover them.

[David C. Macy]

Keep in mind that the information that I posted was brief and not specific as to the NEC and to the exact words. The electrician did a great job & it is me that may be losing some of the information in transition.

Again this was to try to help me better understand & clarify some information.

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by dmacy

The electrician did a great job & it is me that may be losing some of the information in transition.

Again this was to try to help me better understand & clarify some information.

Not specifically attacking your instructor, but it is common that this is true to most all fields: "Great Technicians make for Great Technicians" Meaning that they do not make great instructors, great businessmen, great business partners, etc. Teaching like any other skill, is a skill. A skill that requires organization [topic scope, material handouts, etc], and the ability to draw out questions from student heads, even if they are never asked. [Example: End of class critiques, and call backs from students, can provide inside to what is missing in the class].

In the future, find out if you can chat with previous students from the instructors class. This works for me, I'm too old to waste money and time on an ineffective teacher. I'm sure I'm not alone in this option.

later,

tom

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by pabernathy

Is he speaking of pre 1974 inspections or CURRENT inspections.......

Up here in the north, for upgrading a service panel, there is a minimum upgrade in the whole house's electrical system. One is having at least two receptacles in each room. (As well as other requirements, all K&T removed from the basement, etc). So his [the instructors] example might be how some AHJ try to bring old work up to almost new work standards(very water down new work standards).

Just guessing.... I wasn't at the class.

tom

[Paul W. Abernathy]

hey tom,

Actually I am all for the concept, but unless it is a AHJ doing the lesson I just dont want guys thinking and confusing the concepts of what it should be and what someone will allow.

As for the instructor...in no way Dave am I downing him...sounds like he did a good job......you probably did lose something in translation...hey its all good as I always like people taking electrical classes......

Chances are I wont be doing them anymore for NACHI so getting them somewhere is better than no where at all......

Tom is right.......it takes a talent to be a good effective speaker and many just can't do it....and many try but in the end it is all good and the fact you are a good enough student to take notes and have these questions.....says alot about you and your dedication to your profession.

I agree that in some areas they do allow a watered down NEC update...but that sometimes is not a standard and can really cause issues to an HI.....so know your area and know your AHJ so that you have your bases covered if you refer anything....

Dave....not downing your instructor my friend.....takes alot to get up and do a class....i was only giving you some clarrification on the issues.....and their is much more but I just don't like to type for an hour....lol

[tdietrich1]

Good point Paul, maybe it wasn't important to understand what some AHJ will accept, but to find out what will YOUR AHJ will accept.

I like having a good relationship with my local inspectors, and this comes from allowing them a few minutes to explain how to make them happy when they come to inspect.

later,

tom

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Tom,

You hit a GREAT point.........while I have the ability to TRIP up many AHJ's in my area...and many call me for advice which you can imagine helps my inspections of my electrical projects...knowing people always helps but I NEVER try to trip them up...I try to educate them and as you stated....if all the contractors would take a minute to understand that IF the AHJ fails something......dont get upset....LEARN from it and remember they will give the contractor a DETAILED list of what in their mind needs to be fixed so now the contractor has a clear picture of what to fix.....if you ask me when i do local AHJ work...( sub-contracted )...I give a complete list to the guys...and it should make their job much easier...

So yes...get to know you local AHJ.......can only HELP the HI to know what the local guys are looking for also.