conduit

[Joe Farsetta]

An insulated ground conductor is required. The UV thing and physical damage is valid, but the initial question came to Romex installed in conduit. The construction of the cable is at issue; not the UV damage or physical damage. So, I agree with Mike W that technically it is not allowed. Whether the rule is enforced is another discussion.

My understanding is that the ussue with Romex comes down to the interpretation of what an insulated ground conductor is. In Romex, the ground is actually un-insulated (bare wire we all see). Some electricians argue that the non-metallic sheathing is the insulation. Technically, this is incorrect. The issue comes to whether the physal conductor has its own insulated jacket.

This is not to say that electricians dont install Romex in this application all the time. Its also not saying that the AHJ may not okay it.

Its just the science behind what Mike Whitt is stating, and technically he is correct.

The other purpose of conduit it to allow individual conductors to be run through them, as opposed to a jacketed cable. In fact, stuffing too many jacketed cables in to the physical space within a conduit is also not permitted.

Admittedly, I never quote code because I am not a code technocrat.

Mike... is this what you are getting at?

[rromoser]

UF cable is a type of romex and it is listed for exterior use. It is sunlight resistant. Regular romes NM-B is not listed for use outdoors subject to oisture. It has a paper liner.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by jfarsetta

An insulated ground conductor is required. The UV thing and physical damage is valid, but the initial question came to Romex installed in conduit. The construction of the cable is at issue; not the UV damage or physical damage. So, I agree with Mike W that technically it is not allowed. Whether the rule is enforced is another discussion.

My understanding is that the ussue with Romex comes down to the interpretation of what an insulated ground conductor is. In Romex, the ground is actually un-insulated (bare wire we all see). Some electricians argue that the non-metallic sheathing is the insulation. Technically, this is incorrect. The issue comes to whether the physal conductor has its own insulated jacket.

Joe, what application are you referring to that an insulated ground is required?
The main place an insulated ground is mandatory is for pool and spa equipment.
I don't see anything here that would mandate an actual insulated ground.

[Jeffrey R. Pope]

Originally Posted by rromoser

UF cable is a type of romex and it is listed for exterior use. It is sunlight resistant. Regular romes NM-B is not listed for use outdoors subject to oisture. It has a paper liner.

"Romex" is a brand name. Romex is a type of NM.

[Brian E. Kelly]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Sorry David,normally dry locations

NM is not allowed outside whether it is in conduit or not. 334.10(A)(1) cleary states "For both exposed and concealed work in " and 334.12(10) TYpe NM shall not be used as follows d. states " Where exposed or subject to excessive moisture or dampness".

A wet location is defined in Article 100 as "Installations underground or in cocrete slabs or masonry in contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather"

So the code says installation in AZ is fine then.

We see it here under patio covers all the time, which is outside, and out of the weather. Man electricians are a snarky bunch.

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Joe,

As long as it looks good it is Ok to run NM outside.

Having to know all that Code stuff really slows down an inspection.

I think I just found out how to save tons of time on my next rough-in.

No it is not OK to run it outside, the rule is specific NM is not allowed in wet or damp locations!

"Location, Damp. Locations protected from weather and not subject to saturation with water or other liquids but subject to moderate degrees of moisture. Examples of such locations include partially protected locations under canopies, marquees, roofed open porches, and like locations, and interior locations subject to moderate degrees of moisture, such as some basements, some barns, and some cold-storage warehouses.

Location, Dry. A location not normally subject to dampness or wetness. A location classified as dry may be temporarily subject to dampness or wetness, as in the case of a building under construction.

Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather."

334.12(B)(4): Clarified by specifying “wet or damp locations.”

(B) Types NM and NMS. Types NM and NMS cables shall not be used under the following conditions or in the following locations:
(1) Where exposed to corrosive fumes or vapors
(2) Where embedded in masonry, concrete, adobe, fill, or plaster
(3) In a shallow chase in masonry, concrete, or adobe and covered with plaster, adobe, or similar finish
(4) In wet or damp locations

Editorially revised for the 2008 Code, this section now uses defined terms in the requirement.

[Speedy Petey]

I agree, in Arizona it's fine.

I think we can all agree if there is a place WITHOUT excessive moisture it's Az.

[Jim Port]

Joe,

You missed my point entirely. It was a joke.

I believe I was the first to tell David that this installation was wrong. He said he doesn't do code and as long as it looks good it passes his inspection.

My next part was about all the time I can save by ignoring Code when I install.

Everything else you posted was posted several times before.

[David P. Valley]

As I stated earlier, I see NM branch wiring on the exterior almost every day.

Here's one from yesterday....

[jtedesco1]

Originally Posted by Jim Port

Joe,

You missed my point entirely. It was a joke.

I believe I was the first to tell David that this installation was wrong. He said he doesn't do code and as long as it looks good it passes his inspection.

My next part was about all the time I can save by ignoring Code when I install.

Everything else you posted was posted several times before.

Oops! I was not sure, and still must advise that the product is not allowed in a damp or wet location, exposed or in a raceway underground, or in raceway above ground, this was clarified in the 2008 NEC, and only to clear up the questions, the product is not allowed in a damp or wet location.

Tell that to the client.

Here's a proposal form for those who have other opinions if they want to change the rules.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by dvalley

As I stated earlier, I see NM branch wiring on the exterior almost every day.

Here's one from yesterday....
Attachment 20294
Attachment 20295

Well, pic #1 looks like it should have been going into the back of an exterior box. That wiring IS NOT "outside" in a case like that.
I do think someone forgot to mount the box and receptacle though.

Pic #2 looks like UF. UF NM cable IS outdoor rated, for sunlight AND moisture.
NM-B is NOT.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by dvalley

As I stated earlier, I see NM branch wiring on the exterior almost every day.

And this makes it right somehow?

[Greg Fretwell]

I think the main problem with NM outside is the paper packing around the wires. It can wick water up into the cable and that might end up in a box inside.

MC uses a plastic wrapper so the aluminum stuff is usually "wet" listed

UF has no packing at all

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Well, pic #1 looks like it should have been going into the back of an exterior box. That wiring IS NOT "outside" in a case like that.
I do think someone forgot to mount the box and receptacle though.

Pic #2 looks like UF. UF NM cable IS outdoor rated, for sunlight AND moisture.
NM-B is NOT.

So you are assuming that this was suppose to go into a weatherproof box. And if this location is not outside, then my name is Dick Tracy.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

Pic #2 looks like UF. UF NM cable IS outdoor rated, for sunlight AND moisture.
NM-B is NOT.

So that explains why I see this type of wiring on the exterior.....It's UF NM!!!