Is this correct

[Ron Chorey II]

Inspected a home today and it looks like the grounds and neutral are tied together. Is this correct? This was a Cutler Hammer panel circa 1978 I think

[gbeaumont]

Originally Posted by rchorey

Inspected a home today and it looks like the grounds and neutral are tied together. Is this correct? This was a Cutler Hammer panel circa 1978 I think

Ronald, as this appears to be the panel containg the main disconnect having the Neutrals and grounds on the same bus is OK, however I would question the multiple tapping of the Neutrals, they really should be seperately terminated on the bus.

Regards

Gerry

[GARY R. EVANS]

It is fine as long as the house main breaker is in the panel. The neutral is required to be bonded to the enclosure at the main disconnect location. If the Main was outside by the meter then the the grounds and neutrals should be isolated from each other in the interior panel.

[tdietrich1]

Originally Posted by gbeaumont

however I would question the multiple tapping of the Neutrals

The effort made braiding the wires to fit under one screw compared to using the empty screws ... tips me off to look closer at the electrical work. Common sense seems uncommon here.

Tom

[James F. McKee]

Originally Posted by gevans2

It is fine as long as the house main breaker is in the panel. The neutral is required to be bonded to the enclosure at the main disconnect location. If the Main was outside by the meter then the the grounds and neutrals should be isolated from each other in the interior panel.

welcome aboard Gary....come back often....jim

[James F. McKee]

Originally Posted by gbeaumont

Ronald, as this appears to be the panel containg the main disconnect having the Neutrals and grounds on the same bus is OK, however I would question the multiple tapping of the Neutrals, they really should be seperately terminated on the bus.

Regards

Gerry

agreed, but was this not a common practice Gerry???

[pdickerson]

I think it was common in some areas of the country, but not in my area. I don't see double tapped neutrals or combined neutral-grounds all that often.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by jmckee

agreed, but was this not a common practice Gerry???

Double lugged neutrals are a common practice here and I write every one of them up.

[Ron Chorey II]

Thank you gentlemen for your expertise

[gbeaumont]

Originally Posted by jmckee

agreed, but was this not a common practice Gerry???

Hi Jim, so was pushing 5 year olds up chimneys

but we think we know better these days

Seriously though, The code on double tapping neutrals came in in the early 1980's if memory serves, and the picture that was posted appears to feature quad & quin taps

Regards

Gerry

[Michael Larson]

It never has been permitted technically by UL67 and under NEC 110.3(B).

It was clarified in NEC 408.21

Even Mike Holt was confused by this issue.

Video link

Holt's comment:

Switchboards and Panelboards
408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Intent: This new section should ensure that grounded (neutral) conductors terminate within the panelboard to an individual terminal. This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings, but nobody knew it existed. UL Std. 67 (Panelboard Standard) permits up to three 10 AWG equipment grounding conductors to terminate on a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose. Figure 408-3

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage.

[Christopher Currins]

Here's another link that I include when I find double taps, All Burned Up

[Jeffrey R. Wicklander]

Originally Posted by mlarson

It never has been permitted technically by UL67 and under NEC 110.3(B).

It was clarified in NEC 408.21

Even Mike Holt was confused by this issue.

Video link

Holt's comment:

Switchboards and Panelboards
408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Intent: This new section should ensure that grounded (neutral) conductors terminate within the panelboard to an individual terminal. This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings, but nobody knew it existed. UL Std. 67 (Panelboard Standard) permits up to three 10 AWG equipment grounding conductors to terminate on a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose. Figure 408-3

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage.

In 2005, this reference was moved to 408.41, for whatever reason. In case people are trying to search for it.

Jeff

[Michael Larson]

Originally Posted by jwicklander

In 2005, this reference was moved to 408.41, for whatever reason. In case people are trying to search for it.

Jeff

That is correct.Thank you. The Holt video was discussing the 2002 NEC.

[Joseph M. Whitt]

Originally Posted by mlarson

It never has been permitted technically by UL67 and under NEC 110.3(B).

It was clarified in NEC 408.21

Even Mike Holt was confused by this issue.

Video link

Holt's comment:

Switchboards and Panelboards
408.21 Grounded Conductor Terminations
Intent: This new section should ensure that grounded (neutral) conductors terminate within the panelboard to an individual terminal. This has been a UL requirement (UL Std. 67 – Panelboard Standard) for some time, and the addition to the NEC is intended to bring this information to the installers. Technically, this is covered by 110.3(B), which requires all equipment to be installed in accordance with the manufacturer's installation instructions and markings, but nobody knew it existed. UL Std. 67 (Panelboard Standard) permits up to three 10 AWG equipment grounding conductors to terminate on a single terminal, if the terminal is marked for this purpose. Figure 408-3

The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage.

Michael

It is very important that the Home inspector understand that UL Standard 67 was a manufacturing standard and is/was not part of the listing and labeling of any panel board.

A copy of UL Standard 67 cost $1200 today and wasn’t much cheaper back in the 80s. For something to be part of the listing and labeling of a piece of equipment it must be furnished with the equipment when it is sold. It can not be something that is sold separately.

There are still panels that have sit on shelves for years that on the label will allow more than one grounded neutral under one screw. The code section was adopted in order to make all installation of both old and new panels.