Dishwasher on GFCI circuit

[sspradling]

Today's afternoon inspection was a 4 year old. The dishwasher is on the same circuit as one of the counters, and testing the GFCI shut off the d/w. Since this is the first time I've come across this, I wonder if it's ok to have the dishwasher on the same circuit as a GFCI counter circuit. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Stu

[Stephen W. Stanczyk]

Nope, not allowed.

"A fastened-in-place appliance (dishwasher, garbage disposer, etc.) shall not be connected to a small appliance branch circuit."

Steve

[Russel Ray]

Today's GFCI outlets seem to be subject to nuisance tripping when appliances with motors turn on, so I always recommend a dedicated standard circuit when I find the dishwasher, disposal, washer, or dryer on a GFCI circuit.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

Originally Posted by rray

Today's GFCI outlets seem to be subject to nuisance tripping when appliances with motors turn on, so I always recommend a dedicated standard circuit when I find the dishwasher, disposal, washer, or dryer on a GFCI circuit.

Firstly, NO the DW should not be on the GFCI for a kitchen counter simply because the NEC states this, the small appliance circuit requirements prohibit it.

Secondly, the NEC Code Panel seems to disagree in terms of the GFCI's and nuisance tripping. The panel is on record saying in 2008 NEC the allowances of readily accessible and dedicated ( like freezer ) in the garage area and other places which were allowed in the past to not have GFCI....WILL have to be GFCI protected now ( includeding freezers....) because they said DIRECTLY and on record....GFCI's no longer have the issues of nuisance tripping .......check out the ROC on 210.8 for the 2008 NEC...

Should be VERY interesting.....

[Greg Fretwell]

How many circuits are feeding the kitchen?
If there are more than 2 20a circuits in there it is not really a problem. Look at the intent of the rule. They are just trying to insure the owner has enough power for their counter top appliances.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

not sure an HI will be going into determining that...so we generally speak in terms of the Minimum (2) Small Appliance circuits on the counter top. The problem is ( the way I read it )....is 2 or 3 or more serving the counter space would not be able to have a Dishwasher on it.

Now this is why a dedicated circuit is required to this appliance, usually due to the location.....and ofcourse load...but if the counter top has a GFCI and it trips the DishWasher...it is MOOT...should not be on the counter top circuit or the dedicated Small Appliance circuit.......but again just my opinion....

(B) Small Appliances.

(1) Receptacle Outlets Served.

In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling
unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch
circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and
floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop
outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for
refrigeration equipment.

(2) No Other Outlets.

The two or more small-appliance
branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no
other outlets.

Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical

supply to and support of an electric clock in any of
the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power
for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired
ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.

I agree with Greg in that the intent was to properly supply the needed electricity...but the NEC clearly does not want anything on the circuits which are going to the counter space and like areas ( basically because the original poster said it was on the GFCI counter top..... ) but it is not correct to put a dishwasher on any circuit serving the kitchen counter or so on.....or tied to the dedicated kichen circuit for small appliances be it (2) or more.....this is why I feel it is called to be dedicated to the fixed appliance.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I have seen this in older construction ( not within 4 years ) where the home owner wanted to add a Dishwasher and they simply had the service guy tap into a counter top receptacle...the problem with that is chances are in older homes for one is you probably only have (1) circuit on the counter...and you are LUCKY if it is a 20A circuit.......so it is just a bad idea in all situations...

As an electrical contractor I would simply like most electricians to say....sure we can wire that up for you but it will need an additional circuit ran to it....and if the house panel does not allow this....Prime example of how a house electrical panel should be updated to meet the demands and expansion of todays technology.....a good reason to suggest a FILLED 100A panel...should be updated....or even a less sized panel...prime example to defer and suggest service upgrade....

Remember guys...my opinions are just mine.......and only intended as such as if you don't argee......fine.....I have no problem with that....

[David A. Andersen]

Inductive loads should not be put on small GFCI's like at the counter.

The counter outlets are basically dedicated circuits and should go no where else.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

except where permitted......Agreed !

Ironically the CP for the review of the 2008 NEC are saying GFCI's no longer have a nusiance trip issues.....only time will tell when the exceptions for GFCI locations ( Garages & The Like) is removed and all plugs will be all GFCI....then I guess we will really see.

I agree......and my belief is based on my previous post but I concur 100% with Mr Anderson.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Code aside, from the standpoint of servicibility for the occupant.... the dishwasher can almost fully "load" the circuit during the drying cycle, when the heating element inside comes on fully for a long period of time. That won't leave much capacity on the countertop receptacle(s) for whatever the occupant might want to use at the time the dishwasher is running. This may well yeild a tripping breaker from time to time.

[Greg Fretwell]

This "inductive load" and "motor load" stuff is BS. We run motors on GFCIs every day without problems. Just think of all the power tools that run in garage shops without problems. You couldn't build a house if motors tripped GFCIs. They are REQUIRED for ALL construction outlets in OSHA.
Faulty appliances trip GFCIs ... PERIOD!

[Russel Ray]

Faulty GFCIs also trip GFCIs. So if an appliance with a motor trips a GFCI when the appliance starts, there is a problem that needs to be determined. It could be the appliance, it could be the GFCI; other causes or multiple causes are also possible. In some cases, however, it is simply leakage from older appliances on older GFCIs.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

I work with GFCI's all day on DRILLS and so on and they simply don't trip....so I have no problems with GFCI's today......they really just dont nuissance trip anymore.....Agreed

[David A. Andersen]

This "inductive load" and "motor load" stuff is BS.

"BS", Well put, so long as you're talking out your *****.
What's the difference in a 15 amp inductive appliance versus a 15 amp resistance appliance?
If you can answer that, we can continue this conversation and clear the air of"BS".

It doesn't mean you can't run an inductive load on a GFCI. It means that the load is substantially increased and that an accumulative load may cause the device to think that someone is getting shocked and shutdown.
Remember back in physics class, where energy can't be created or destroyed only transformed?

Well, when you start a motor under an inductive load there is a loss of electrical energy when the appliance converts electrical energy into work which has a resulting transformation to heat.

Also, kitchen countertop GFCI's are not designed to handle excessive loads. There are GFCI devices that can handle hundreds of thousands of amp's and will handle anything you can throw at them. But then, there are GFCI devices that can handle hundreds of thousands of amps and will trip at the drop of a hat. An associate of mine shut down the worldwide Union Carbide office testing an HVAC system. I have done work at numerous power plants across the state of Tennessee and have always had three to five engineers looking over my shoulder to respond to a GFCI trip in the plant that I may potentially be caused during my diagnostic testing.

If you consider it "BS", then that is your prerogative.

This may not be a problem in every case, but when you put three or four bathrooms on the same circuit covered by the same GFCI and then decide to take the electrical circuit out to the back patio and then hook it up to the dishwasher , just maybe there might be a problem.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by dandersen

Remember back in physics class, where energy can't be created or destroyed only transformed?

That's absolutely true. There has been no new electricity generated since 1937. We just keep recyling it.