Distribution panel question

[jlybolt]

Service panel on the exterior of home. Home is two years old. Distribution panel in garage about 50 feet away. I only see two ungrounded conductors and one grounded conductor coming to panel. I dont see a ground? I usually see a ground lug attacthed to the ground strip or bus. What is going on or am I missing something? How much smaller can the ground be on a 4-wire system. Any help would be appreciated. PS - all the ground wires appear to be 12 gauge. 60 amp feed from service panel. I would think mininum of a #6 ground conductor would be needed on a 4 wire system goint to the distribution panel.

[William A. Rosario]

Originally Posted by jlybolt

... I only see two ungrounded conductors and one grounded conductor coming to panel. I dont see a ground?...

I don't undestand your message here...

What I saw on the second image is a Neutral cable (White) which appears to be connected directly to a circuit breaker when its color is incorrect base on color code and circuit breaker appears not to be GFCI/AFCI.

Can you give me more information on the statement quoted?

Which type of panel is this?

William

[wsiegel]

The over bundling of wires should be a concern to you.

[jlybolt]

In other words two hot conductors and one neutral, but I dont see a ground.
This is a subpanel in the garage. It should have a 4 wires going to it from the main panel. All the ground wires that are in the panel appear to be 12 gauge. Should there be a #6 mininum for the ground wire coming in from the main panel since a 60 amp breaker supplies the distribution panel.?

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by jlybolt

Should there be a #6 mininum for the ground wire coming in from the main panel since a 60 amp breaker supplies the distribution panel.?

No. It will be a #10. Could you be mistaking a #10 for all #12s?

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by wsiegel

The over bundling of wires should be a concern to you.

How do you know they are "over" bundled?

[jlybolt]

#10 ? Were do you get this number? It is possible that I mistaken a 10 for a 12 but they sure all look the same.

[Marc D. Shunk]

Originally Posted by jlybolt

#10 ? Were do you get this number?

From the NEC. The ground for 60 amp is #10.

[William A. Rosario]

Originally Posted by jlybolt

In other words two hot conductors and one neutral, but I dont see a ground.

I would recommend to install a Ground to all the panels and provide in the report the pictures that show missing of gorund cable.

However Neutral Bar and Ground Bar are both connected, since the Neutral Cable act as a Mechanical Ground that starts on your main entrance facility prior to reach the electric meter.

[jlybolt]

Mark could you be a little more specific? I know its somewhere in the NEC but I must be flipping over the pages. I have fallen and I cant get up. Must be to much sun today. Its a change from all the rain we have had lately.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by wrosario

I would recommend to install a Ground to all the panels and provide in the report the pictures that show missing of gorund cable.

However Neutral Bar and Ground Bar are both connected, since the Neutral Cable act as a Mechanical Ground that starts on your main entrance facility prior to reach the electric meter.

WHAT???

First off, why would you recommend a certain fix? How do you know this fix is appropriate? HOW do you know the ground is missing????
WHY would you install a ground rod???????????


The neutral conductor MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT "act" as a ground.
This is a sub panel. I can only assume itis within the same structure as the main since it is of the main lug variety. Look closer at the pics and you will see the bars are definitely NOT connected. The ground bar is bonded, the neutral is not.

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by jlybolt

Mark could you be a little more specific? I know its somewhere in the NEC but I must be flipping over the pages. I have fallen and I cant get up. Must be to much sun today. Its a change from all the rain we have had lately.

Table 250.122
A modern copper 6/3NM cable will have a #10 ground within the sheath.

[jlybolt]

Excellent. I didnt see that one. It is possible that the 10 looked like a 12. I was looking at 250-66 GEC sizing.
Thank you

[William A. Rosario]

Originally Posted by Speedy Petey

WHAT???

First off, why would you recommend a certain fix? How do you know this fix is appropriate? HOW do you know the ground is missing????
WHY would you install a ground rod???????????


The neutral conductor MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT "act" as a ground.
This is a sub panel. I can only assume itis within the same structure as the main since it is of the main lug variety. Look closer at the pics and you will see the bars are definitely NOT connected. The ground bar is bonded, the neutral is not.

First looking closer to the panel found there is no connection as I said before. My excuses for not take a closer look first.

But

Why I would not recommend a ground to the panel, why I have ground connections to a bar where there is no connection to Ground. I'm not saying to install a ground Rod but if you can provide ground cable from previous panel will this won't work?

[Speedy Petey]

Originally Posted by wrosario

I'm not saying to install a ground Rod but if you can provide ground cable from previous panel will this won't work?

Absoultey not. A ground rod DOES NOT "provide" a ground.

The installation in question is so new I guarantee there is a ground there. Unless the 6/3 cable used was 40 years old.