Double Taps in Cutler Hammer Panel

[jkogel]

Originally Posted by sshockley

This may sound a bit naive, but do you actually flip the breaker in question and go test the door bell to verify? I've not seen any breaker panels yet (not looked at that many yet either) that call out the door bell as part of the marking in the box. I guess my concern with flipping the breaker would be if there was a receptacle on that same circuit that might have a home PC plugged into it that might be on at the time.


Please advise,

Steve

The doorbell tranformer will be right there at the panel. If located elsewhere, you will not see it double-tapped. The transformer has soft, stranded copper leads, less likely to be a problem, but still not allowed in some areas.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by sshockley

This may sound a bit naive, but do you actually flip the breaker in question and go test the door bell to verify? I've not seen any breaker panels yet (not looked at that many yet either) that call out the door bell as part of the marking in the box. I guess my concern with flipping the breaker would be if there was a receptacle on that same circuit that might have a home PC plugged into it that might be on at the time.


Please advise,

Steve

How long have you been inspecting SE panels? Obviously not long enough. Why would anyone flip a breaker to see if a wire leads to a doorbell transformer, when this type of double tap would be clearly visible?

While the dead front panel cover is "Off", you'll literally follow many solo double taps right to the doorbell transformer, which is located within inches of the breaker that it is tapped into. 85% of Electricians double tap this low voltage wire on a daily basis.

[Stephen P. Shockley]

David,

Thanks for the helpful information. I thought that I had mentioned my lack of experience in my original post. Anyhow, I'd like to see a picture of an example of what you are referring to if anyone on this message board wouldn't mind sharing. I'm actually just starting out in HI's. I still have to submit the rest of my Mock-up inspections to NACHI to fulfill my membership requirements. Anyhow, that is where I stand at the moment, which might explain all of my questions. I apologize for not being as familiar with the electrical stuff as most here.


Regards,

Steve

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by sshockley

David,

Thanks for the helpful information. I thought that I had mentioned my lack of experience in my original post. Anyhow, I'd like to see a picture of an example of what you are referring to if anyone on this message board wouldn't mind sharing. I'm actually just starting out in HI's. I still have to submit the rest of my Mock-up inspections to NACHI to fulfill my membership requirements. Anyhow, that is where I stand at the moment, which might explain all of my questions. I apologize for not being as familiar with the electrical stuff as most here.


Regards,

Steve

I don't re-read posts, so I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

This is a doorbell transformer....


On the other side of this panel attachment (inside the panel), you'll see this low voltage wire double tapped into a breaker, in most installations.

[Stephen P. Shockley]

Here are a couple more photos of the Service Panel that I had taken.


Regards,

Steve

[Stephen P. Shockley]

Thanks for the pic David, ... I've seen these before mounted up under the crawl space to the side of a floor joist in proximity to the front door above. However the panel I was looking at was in a garage that was set in drywall. Didn't see any transformers in this area anywhere. The double-tapped wire didn't appear to be stranded either as someone had mentioned in one of the earlier post.


Regards,

Steve

[Jeffrey Moore]

Stephen,
Don't be afraid to continue asking questions on this BB. You will, on occasion receive the type of response you got from one of the posters, but hopefully more from those that can actually help. He did respond with an apology and further info but the first response was just wrong.

Sometimes they forget what THEY were like when first starting out.

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

Stephen,
Don't be afraid to continue asking questions on this BB. You will, on occasion receive the type of response you got from one of the posters, but hopefully more from those that can actually help. He did respond with an apology and further info but the first response was just wrong.

Sometimes they forget what THEY were like when first starting out.

Jeffrey,

I'm sorry I'm not perfect like yourself.

[Paul W. Abernathy]

ok..ok..guys.........lets remember that Electrical Topics are hard for everyone and most certainly newbies to electricity. If anyone ever has a concern about electricity then the best thing to always do it ask as many questions as possible.

Shockey....I would suggest doing some electrical searches on this forum and would be surprised at all the information that you will find.

[Jeffrey Moore]

David,
It has nothing to do about being perfect. It has everything to do about reading the posts and responding in a positive manner, not insulting the individual. This BB has gone through a transformation and most of the posters have tried to not insult people in their initial responses. Many good people have moved elsewhere due to responses like yours. Many important questions will be unasked just because of the same type response you made.
If you had taken the time to read the initial post I hope you would have responded in a different manner,
Leave the insults to those that truely deserve it and this OP did not.

[Christopher Currins]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

David,
It has nothing to do about being perfect. It has everything to do about reading the posts and responding in a positive manner, not insulting the individual. This BB has gone through a transformation and most of the posters have tried to not insult people in their initial responses. Many good people have moved elsewhere due to responses like yours. Many important questions will be unasked just because of the same type response you made.
If you had taken the time to read the initial post I hope you would have responded in a different manner,
Leave the insults to those that truely deserve it and this OP did not.

Being that you're so concerned with INachi member conduct why don't you mention being a member of InterNachi on your website?

[Jeffrey Moore]

despite what it might say in my info I have not been an official member of NACHI for long at all.


My response would have been the same no matter if the responder was a member or not.

Since it concerns YOU so much I will add INACHI to my website today.
Happy ?

[David P. Valley]

Originally Posted by jmoore5

David,
It has nothing to do about being perfect. It has everything to do about reading the posts and responding in a positive manner, not insulting the individual. This BB has gone through a transformation and most of the posters have tried to not insult people in their initial responses. Many good people have moved elsewhere due to responses like yours. Many important questions will be unasked just because of the same type response you made.
If you had taken the time to read the initial post I hope you would have responded in a different manner,
Leave the insults to those that truely deserve it and this OP did not.

Another individual with a slight attitude......you must be bored.

[Gregory A. Liebig]

Originally Posted by dvalley

Stephen,

Be careful when you are calling out a single double tap. This particular tap could be supplying a doorbell transformer (which is low voltage). I see this in 95% of the panels I inspect. If you call these out, you will be wasting your time.

But if the doorbell transformer is stranded, and the second branch is solid, that is still a safety hazard. You cannot mix different gages or types of wires under the same screw regardless if it's "low voltage" or not. I've had situations like this many times before and the doorbell circut pulls right out without any force. In that case, it must be pigtailed with the same type (solid) and the same gauge (No. 14) with a 15 amp breaker.

[Blaine Wiley]

Has anyone ever quantified how many fires, injuries or equipment failures have happened because of a double tap?